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Old 08-06-2018, 11:36 PM
 
Location: California USA
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What is a parable? A fictional place with fictional characters whose purpose is to illustrate a moral lesson or principle.

How do we know its a parable? Matthew 13:35 "All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them.... "

The account is found in Luke 16. Context does matter to get the sense of the moral lesson or principle. The religious leaders and Jesus are at odds. Luke 16:15 is as follows, “You [the religious leaders] are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight."

He then begins the parable of Lazarus and the rich man:

Lazarus= the common people
The rich man=the religious leaders who were educated and privileged
Death=the change in the former condition of the common people and the religious leaders
The common people were neglected spiritually and viewed with contempt by some of the contemporary religious leaders. However, they were fed spiritually by Jesus and found favor in God's eyes
The religious leaders however "died" with respect to God's favor for there failure to feed the people spiritually.

In fact, Jesus finishes the parable in Luke 16:31 with the following, again directing attention to the insensibility of the religious leaders, “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

Has nothing to do with hell as literal place. It IS a parable.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:31 AM
 
Location: New England
32,305 posts, read 21,155,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
In fact, Jesus finishes the parable in Luke 16:31 with the following, again directing attention to the insensibility of the religious leaders, “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

Has nothing to do with hell as literal place. It IS a parable.
Exactly!, Jesus is saying "Even though i rise from the dead to convince you of who i am" , you will not listen to Moses and the prophets who foretold "I am the one", better still that same i am is who we all are( being convinced of this is truly being saved from your sins).
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:36 AM
 
Location: New England
32,305 posts, read 21,155,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I know, just like the word HELL, you can give it any meaning you what over time.
It comes to something when you have to have an open heart to see something as basic as this, a blind man on a galloping horse can see it is so. It's funny how 1 poster on this forum is a stalwart when it comes to the true meaning of fundamentalist, but will not apply the same to the meaning and misuse of hell..... What's all that about?.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:39 AM
Status: "Waving a sign that reads John 3:16" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,395 posts, read 8,924,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
What is a parable? A fictional place with fictional characters whose purpose is to illustrate a moral lesson or principle.

How do we know its a parable? Matthew 13:35 "All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them.... "

The account is found in Luke 16. Context does matter to get the sense of the moral lesson or principle. The religious leaders and Jesus are at odds. Luke 16:15 is as follows, “You [the religious leaders] are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight."

He then begins the parable of Lazarus and the rich man:

Lazarus= the common people
The rich man=the religious leaders who were educated and privileged
Death=the change in the former condition of the common people and the religious leaders
The common people were neglected spiritually and viewed with contempt by some of the contemporary religious leaders. However, they were fed spiritually by Jesus and found favor in God's eyes
The religious leaders however "died" with respect to God's favor for there failure to feed the people spiritually.

In fact, Jesus finishes the parable in Luke 16:31 with the following, again directing attention to the insensibility of the religious leaders, “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

Has nothing to do with hell as literal place. It IS a parable.
What does Hell and the chasm represent?
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Old 08-07-2018, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,198 posts, read 34,429,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Jesus and His followers would not warn you if they were after your flesh. Satan, in the other hand, does want your flesh, which is why he wants you to ignore the warnings of Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I know, just like the word HELL, you can give it any meaning you what over time.
Kind of leaves you wondering what you mean by "it", but lets not worry about it.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,912 posts, read 5,002,235 times
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Again, Lazarus is the name of the priesthood and what anyone wants to make of that parable, the very first VERY OBVIOUS THING is the fact that the parable begins in speaking of the priesthood, Lazarus IS the priesthood, it is the spirit that man was to be married to but he chose money OVER the priesthood.


From the very Beginning of Luke 16, it is explaining what YOU ARE, it is explaining the marriage that you are to be in with the word of God. It is explaining how you have found yourself in this body of death and how you are in a marriage of flesh and spirit. You have been given this body of flesh and your life is a test of what you will become and whether or not you shall receive a resurrected body or not...... If you have been given this worthless body of flesh that comes and goes in an instance and you have decided to use this life to live as a king in luxury, then you have chosen the wrong life, the wrong marriage, and if you have proven your unworthiness, and uselessness with this miserable life, then why would God give you what already belongs to you?


And this saying may sound confusing because you were born into a body that doesn't belong to you, and that you have another body that does belong to you, but as confusing as it may sound, we claim that we are born again, not that we have entered our mother's womb again, but that an actual seed was planted into this body and that seed became a child, and you are pregnant with that child born into a body that doesn't even belong to you, in a world that isn't made for you, now you are just passing through as a traveler with no home, and you are building a new home on a sure foundation, your works are building a new you that you may be clothed in righteousness instead of corruption.


Every Gentile who becomes a bride of Christ is implanted with a seed to raise as a child and Revelation 12 is explaining the war going on inside a person as a virgin to Christ is about to give birth to a full grown child............That virgin of Christ gives birth to her child and that child is taken up to heaven to sit in heavenly places as a resurrection body for that virgin to occupy when they die......When a Christian has lived a life of Passover dying daily in living a life in Pentecost studying day and night, he has begun a 7 year covenant and when he has finished his 42 months in his first season, that child he has been raising is caught up to God as he continues the rest of that 7 year covenant where in the middle of that week, the sacrifices are cut off from the temple the virgin happens to be, and those sacrifices are to sustain the virgin but when they are taken away, a person sees what he is, and then he knows that he has to go all the way to death just as those two witnesses realize it. The spirit of Elijah comes to a person and just as Elijah they begin to call down fire from heaven in the spirit of their father Satan, and that spirit must die, Elijah must get beheaded, and he must be taken out of the picture where a person is then raised to life as it was when Elijah was caught up to heaven and Elisha was left behind as a new creature and now a double portion of spirit rests on his head. He doesn't go out in judgment, he goes out seeking a place to dwell with the sons of the prophets of the house of Israel from the Northern kingdom of Israel, instead of killing them with fire from heaven, he has become a priest who would rather teach them instead of killing them and always speaking of judgment against them, instead of hate and anger he finds love and kindness.



The Woman and the Dragon ~ Revelation 12 ~ A Virgin of Christ giving birth.
1And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and crying out in the pain and agony of giving birth.
3Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns{Ephraim's ten kings}, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as He was born.


5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter;{Revelation 2~ The OVERCOMER is the child to rule all the Nations} and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.


The War in Heaven
7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—the ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Rosh Hashanah
10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of His Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down,
he who accuses them day and night before our God.
11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
and they did not love their lives
so as to shy away from death.
12Therefore rejoice, O heavens,
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea;
with great fury the devil has come down to you,
knowing he has only a short time.”


{Why does the devil know his time is short? }


The Woman Persecuted
13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.
15Then from the mouth of the serpent spewed water like a river to overtake the woman and sweep her away in the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth to swallow up the river that had poured from the dragon’s mouth. 17And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore{Sand of the seashore is a name for,'' Ephraim.''




A 7 year covenant to walk in, 42 months in Ephraim, and 1260 days in Judah. Why 7 years?


Why one week?


Why do we keep seeing the 42 months and then the 3 and a half years?
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:20 PM
 
5,986 posts, read 1,715,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Again, Lazarus is the name of the priesthood and what anyone wants to make of that parable, the very first VERY OBVIOUS THING is the fact that the parable begins in speaking of the priesthood, Lazarus IS the priesthood, it is the spirit that man was to be married to but he chose money OVER the priesthood.
Complete nonsense. Honestly. Where do you get this stuff?
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,912 posts, read 5,002,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Complete nonsense. Honestly. Where do you get this stuff?
It is the truth, it is a parable being spoken to people who know the history of Israel, who know the priesthood, who know the 7 feast days and who know the Jewish idioms being spoken. I don't expect that many Christians will agree with me because Christians don't know that the priesthood is named Lazarus, they don't see a son of perdition within their own lives. Those parables are not written to people who don't know the religion, they are written specifically to the Jew who knows the Torah cycle along with all the duties of the priests as they perform their duties on Holy days, and the story of Lazarus is about Rosh Hashanah just as all of Matthew 24 is about Rosh Hashanah, just as all of Revelation is about Rosh Hashanah and the fall holy days. The fact that what I am saying is true, is just a fact known by those who study Judaism, who practice the religion of God. I wouldn't expect you to understand a religion besides your own religion. Do you know what happens on Rosh Hashanah, the ten days to Yom Kippur and what happens on Yom Kippur? Do you know what the priests and the congregation are doing on Tishri 1 to Tishri 23?


If you want to speak of parables, then you need to learn what a Jew knew 2000 years ago, you need to put your feet in the shoes of a Jew having been raised to be a Rabbi all his life, you need to know the history of the Two Kingdoms like the back of your hand before you can even understand the New Testament, much less understanding parables. The basic truth is very simple, salvation is very simple, but those parables are teaching something way BEYOND MERE SALVATION, they are teaching how a Gentile/Ephraim, becomes Israel, becomes one with a Jew. That is why all the parables involve Ephraim and Judah, besides the fact that Ephraim represents your flesh and Judah the spirit.


Are you born again BF?


Do you know what being born again is?


Have you been studying the word of God to give your child the milk of the word that one day your child can eat the meat of the word?


Before you can even start to raise a child in the milk of the word to eat the meat of the word, shouldn't you first realize that you even have a child that you are studying enough for Christ to be formed in you? Paul and the disciples taught their Gentiles face to face and even they couldn't help raise children within those people. Paul was always mad and perplexed by them because where they should have already been Rabbis with mature children, they were still babies on milk, and Paul said that they were still HIS babies, not the babies of Christ. Paul said they were his little babies until such a time came after more study that Christ would finally be formed in them.......


What sort of truth are you teaching if you don't know that you have to be born again? And if you don't know that you are born again, how will you lead others to give their children the milk of the word until their children can eat the meat of the word?


The meat of the word is those 7 feasts OF MEAT, they are 7 MISSIONS OF TRUTH that Christ comes forming IN YOU through those missions, EACH and EVERY ONE JUST FOR YOU, 7 appointed visitation days JUST FOR YOU and the child you are raising.


Are you born again BF?
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:06 PM
 
Location: central Florida
987 posts, read 358,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
How can the rich man be Lazarus when at Luke 16:14 Jesus is addressing the covetous, money-loving Pharisees________
At verse 15 Jesus goes on to say to 'them' ( Pharisees ) Not to Lazarus.

As death ends a marriage, the 'law and the prophets' ( marriage ) of verse 16 ended with Jesus - Romans 10:4.

The description found at Luke 16:19 does Not fit the description of Lazarus, but fits the ' rich man ' Pharisees - verse 14.
You are entirely correct.

Post #8 seems to be deliberately misrepresenting scripture so as to further an agenda other than that of the Words of Christ. No supporting documentation is provided to support this massive assault against the Bible. The post is an almost perfect example of a deliberate attempt to warp the context of scripture and to insist upon error as truth. It is a classic example of false teaching. To that end, I'd like to demonstrate where it left the road and crashed.

"Again, the rich man IS Lazarus, Lazarus IS the rich man, and he has come to the great division which divides soul and spirit." - Post #8
It's been pointed out elsewhere that a massive error is made in identifying the character Lazarus in the parable. Additionally, a division between soul and spirit is not the intent of Christ nor is it implied. The parable is a simple example in morality and the long term effects of it.

"He chose riches instead of being a priest, Lazarus IS THE NAME OF THE PRIESTHOOD." - post #8
There is no suggestion implied or stated regarding priests or a priesthood. Jesus speaks to Jews as a Jew in this parable. Everyone present knew the priesthood consisted of Levites. Lazarus was not a Levite, neither was he a kohen (1).

"The name Lazarus was not chosen by mistake, it is chosen to show the priesthood that a man would not feed, instead he chose a different wife, a different life." - Post #8

The above statement shows how the logic of post #8 has completely gone off the rails. It's a train wreck from beginning to end and the end of it is as massively inconsistent as anything else represented by the initial lines.

The name of the character in Jesus' parable was Lazarus. It was chosen because Lazarus was well known to Christ and indeed was a personal friend. Lazarus was also a common name in Jesus' day, but most commentators assume the name was chosen due to familiarity and friendship.

The context of the parable had to do with references to TORAH (2) for guidance and understanding. The purpose of Jesus' parable was to teach the legal basis upon which physical behavior would lead to spiritual consequences under TORAH (2). Just in case the hearer or reader misses the point, Lazarus says so at the end of it.

Note that the rich man was not accused of any criminal act nor even of sin.

The rich man is not in hell. According to strict interpretation of Hebrew doctrine at that time and place the rich man may have either been in Sheol (3) or was suffering social ostracism. Ostracism or ejection from the Jewish nation was a terrible punishment. The Christian equivalent is excommunication. Jesus' parable simply implies the TORAH principle that social neglect has consequences.

The parable has nothing to do with the Levite priesthood, pharisees, or any associated group. Marital status is likewise not mentioned, though post #8 assumes it is for reasons known only to the writer.

This absurd interpretation of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a fine example of perverse undocumented logic that attempts to strip a parable of Christ of its authority and meaning. The problem with many such posts is that they are attached to discussions by persons totally lacking in religious training or respect of scripture.

One may also wonder as to who or what inspires these deliberate tangential imaginative wanderings.

It certainly wasn't inspired by the Ruach Hakodesh....(4)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

(1) Kohen is Hebrew for 'priest'.
(2) TORAH is Hebrew for the first 5 books of the Bible. It's also called Pentateuch by the Latin church and 'The Law' by Jesus and apostles.
(3) Sheol is the Hebrew place where the dead slept until called forth at God's good pleasure. Think of it as a spiritual bedroom for the dead. That's it and that's all.
(4) Ruach Hokodesh is Hebrew for 'Holy Spirit'.

Last edited by Choir Loft; 08-07-2018 at 03:00 PM..
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:51 PM
Status: "Waving a sign that reads John 3:16" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,395 posts, read 8,924,600 times
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If Luke 16 is a parable, why did Jesus say this?

Luke 13

22 And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29 And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”
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