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Old 08-09-2018, 08:51 AM
 
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Rev 20:10- And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented

[Greek "basanizo":to test, question, one who elicits the truth by the use of torture, which usually resulted in death].

day and night for ever and ever.

Mt. 8:29- And suddenly they [demons] cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
Mark 1:24- “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”
Mt 14:22- But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed [basanizo] by the waves, for the wind was contrary."

Those demons KNEW that Jesus was going to DESTROY/TORMENT them.
Those that KNOW Jesus KNOW he would never torture ANYONE- much less forever.
DESTROY them, if evil- yes.
And he is JUST LIKE his God and Father.
So- what about this "torture"?
Is Jesus going to TORTURE Satan and demons FOREVER to get the TRUTH from them?
When WE stand before Christ- will he have to torture US to get truth out of us?
NO! Of course not.
Jesus IS going to both judge and destroy them- but the "FIRE" is a symbol. The "sulfur" is a hint; men USED it to keep fires going in Gehenna to...WAIT FOR IT...
DESTROY GARBAGE!
How can we know this for CERTAIN?
Simple!
Jehovah even SPELLS IT OUT for us all in Revelation, by TELLING us what that symbol ("Lake of Fire") MEANS!

Rev 20:14- Then Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND Death, the lake of fire.

Thus, the Lake pictures DEATH- the second and FINAL one, where no sacrifice will bring about a resurrection- as with the first!
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:49 AM
 
1,078 posts, read 770,924 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by theMadJW View Post

Rev 20:10- And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented

[Greek "basanizo":to test, question, one who elicits the truth by the use of torture, which usually resulted in death].

day and night for ever and ever.

Mt. 8:29- And suddenly they [demons] cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
Mark 1:24- “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”
Mt 14:22- But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed [basanizo] by the waves, for the wind was contrary."

Those demons KNEW that Jesus was going to DESTROY/TORMENT them.
Those that KNOW Jesus KNOW he would never torture ANYONE- much less forever.
DESTROY them, if evil- yes.
And he is JUST LIKE his God and Father.
So- what about this "torture"?
Is Jesus going to TORTURE Satan and demons FOREVER to get the TRUTH from them?
When WE stand before Christ- will he have to torture US to get truth out of us?
NO! Of course not.
Jesus IS going to both judge and destroy them- but the "FIRE" is a symbol. The "sulfur" is a hint; men USED it to keep fires going in Gehenna to...WAIT FOR IT...
DESTROY GARBAGE!
How can we know this for CERTAIN?
Simple!
Jehovah even SPELLS IT OUT for us all in Revelation, by TELLING us what that symbol ("Lake of Fire") MEANS!

Rev 20:14- Then Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND Death, the lake of fire.

Thus, the Lake pictures DEATH- the second and FINAL one, where no sacrifice will bring about a resurrection- as with the first!
I guess I have a question..if death is thrown into the lake of fire how can there be death? What if it were that our God IS a consuming fire? What if the demons were tortured with love instead of hate? Maybe that would be even harder for them?
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:52 AM
 
10,569 posts, read 2,702,109 times
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If Jesus wants to destroy them or keep them imprisoned, why does another verse state Satan and the demons must be released upon the world again for a short time, set free from the pit?

This indicates they have some purpose to God.

Another verse had Satan meeting God and God asking him where he as been, Satan replied that he has been coming and going from the earth.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:09 AM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,867,164 times
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Look at the California wildfires. Then ponder about the flames of hell.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:16 AM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,805 posts, read 13,413,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Look at the California wildfires. Then ponder about the flames of hell.

Keep your fantasies to yourself.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,376 posts, read 12,129,606 times
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Have they tortured trillions...No.

Now, let's see...forget the Bible concepts of men about lots of things...let's say you believed Jesus did nothing that God the Father did NOT want him to do.

Jesus did only God's Will, in other words...
(this is not to atheists who may think J did not even exist.)

OK....so Jesus' entire mission was a healing mission...not one person in a field, next to him, even if someone else asked to heal someone far away...
he did the Will of the Father.
So now, this person and his Father are going to torture, murder, obliterate souls even, as someone said before?
No...the God, creator, Divine Holy Spirit that has visited me
is only bleeding love that is almost unbearable.
I don't care what ancient people made up in their heads about God, then wrote down, said was the truth...don't believe it.

God is only Pure Love....and just...and fair....and merciful...and I must say here, Magnificent beyond imagination.

Don't believe ME, please....open to Him ...and see...forget hearsay and stories my friends. ❤️
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:40 PM
 
20,385 posts, read 9,825,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Look at the California wildfires. Then ponder about the flames of hell.
Are you a suspect?
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:40 PM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,169,155 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by theMadJW View Post

... [/b]The "sulfur" is a hint; men USED it to keep fires going in Gehenna to...WAIT FOR IT...
DESTROY GARBAGE!...!
Of course the God who is love (and therefore holy) doesn't torture people. God doesn't consider anyone garbage to be destroyed, either.
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:41 PM
 
435 posts, read 116,673 times
Reputation: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by theMadJW View Post

Rev 20:10- And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented

[Greek "basanizo":to test, question, one who elicits the truth by the use of torture, which usually resulted in death].

day and night for ever and ever.

Are you a JW. See what the Kingdom Interlinear says. Some literal translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

See also posts 130 & 131 @

https://www.christianforums.com/thre...8019864/page-7

Regarding 12 points re ages of ages ending.

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thre...#post-72126038


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/un...versalism.html
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,879 posts, read 2,381,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Of course the God who is love (and therefore holy) doesn't torture people. God doesn't consider anyone garbage to be destroyed, either.
Well said So many IGNORE the basic " Free Will" that was given to the human's from the beginning. So when human's use their "Power and Greed" to control them.. MANY suffer.. Then of course, cult's band together to inflict their HATRED towards they deem as enemies, and how human's interact even within some "Families". Point is.. the pain, suffering is MOST often caused by fellow Human beings.. NOT GOD!

Just my taken "Life on Earth" meanings. It's a world for human's to learn, evolve, figure out things... Those that USE and ABUSE are on a very early "Learning Curve" to understand that old saying " Love one another as I love you and as one loves themselves and command you to love one another "

https://biblehub.com/john/13-34.htm

various versions that pretty well say the same thing ~~ So nobody can suggest the bible does NOT teach that!!
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