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Old 08-19-2018, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,301 posts, read 7,680,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You keep denying that the Bible is the word of God. You've been shown that the book of Revelation is by John's own statements the word of God. So why are you now unwilling to say that John was either lying or that he was wrong? ....
False dichotomy. The alternative is that John did not write the book attributed to him and it has ALWAYS been of disputed value. Apocryphal literature by its very nature is questionable. Try the Apocalypse of Peter for fun.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:29 PM
 
Location: New England
32,302 posts, read 21,155,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You keep denying that the Bible is the word of God. You've been shown that the book of Revelation is by John's own statements the word of God. So why are you now unwilling to say that John was either lying or that he was wrong?

Jesus is not the only word of God. Though out the book of Acts the gospel message is declared to be the word of God. Jesus called the Mosaic Law the word (or commandment) of God.

You only have three options. You can admit that John said that the book of Revelation is the word of God, or you can deny it, or you can refuse to comment on it as you are doing. And you are on the spot.
You keep deny that which you call the word of God clearly states that Jesus Christ is the Word, you dare not believe this, because it would mean you having to trust the Spirit instead of the letter. Jesus said the life is in him not the scriptures, why do you have a problem with this?. I am playing your game.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:34 PM
 
20,450 posts, read 9,860,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I do not believe in a literal millennial reign of Christ, and the book of Revelation was, and is controversial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You don't believe much of anything that the Bible says.

And the book of Revelation is one of the 27 books in the New Testament canon.
I am aware of the number of books, then and now. Including that of the Revelation of Peter. But you are correct, I have never believed in an underworld or that of demons, Satan or hell. Furthermore, what I don't succumb to is that of angelology. Although the idea of a guardian angel is appealing, it's like that of having a sixth sense or precognition that something isn't right, an intuitive insight. Like knowing that most of the doctrine's which have been taught as being literal, where merely meant to convey something more spiritual without creating a separate entity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
As most of the world doesn't. You've managed to jettison Genesis as allegorical. Why not come all the way and learn to separate the rest of the chaff from what wheat there is?
He cannot get beyond the ideology that people must suffer, unfortunately, most people can't when they have either experienced a great deal of hardship or they have been taught to believe that it must be so.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,279 posts, read 54,731,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Are you afraid to comment on the fact that John stated that the book of Revelation is the word of God? You've been given several chances to do so but you keep running away from it. What's the problem? Come on. You keep saying that the Bible is not the word of God. So in the face of the fact that John explicitly said that Revelation is the word of God, why won't you comment on it? Why do you keep trying to divert away from it? You are on the spot.
I'm not pcamps and therefore not on the spot, but I am curious. Are you saying that you do not question that the Book of Revelation is the word of God because John, the author, said it was the word of God? That's what it seems to say here. If I am missing something, correct me.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,301 posts, read 7,680,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
You keep deny that which you call the word of God clearly states that Jesus Christ is the Word, you dare not believe this, because it would mean you having to trust the Spirit instead of the letter. Jesus said the life is in him not the scriptures, why do you have a problem with this?. I am playing your game.
It boggles my mind that anyone familiar with the history of the doctrines in regard to authority should hold Mike's position. Briefly, the Catholic religion claimed that the Church was the authority for all matters of faith and claimed it was guided by the Spirit. Any honest evaluation of doctrines and their consequent actions in heresy persecutions would put the lie to that claim. The Reformation countered that bankrupt claim with the idea that scripture was the only authority and has been scrambling ever since to make it look like the Bible is a coherent whole with a discernable theme throughout instead of the mishmash of different perceptions about God and our relation to Him that it clearly is And they have claimed to be led by the Spirit while fracturing into thousands of different warring groups. They give NO basis or standard for determining what the guidance of the Spirit would look like, but pretty much leave things as majority rules and if you don't like it go elsewhere.

It also boggles my mind that whenever I am asked how to tell which opinion on any subject is following the Spirit I NEVER get a reply when I say that it will be shown by conformity to the nature of that Spirit as taught by Jesus and the Apostles. I also say that it WILL easily be seen which is open to the Spirit by how the conversation is conducted.

Color me Quaker.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:52 PM
 
20,450 posts, read 9,860,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Are you afraid to comment on the fact that John stated that the book of Revelation is the word of God? You've been given several chances to do so but you keep running away from it. What's the problem? Come on. You keep saying that the Bible is not the word of God. So in the face of the fact that John explicitly said that Revelation is the word of God, why won't you comment on it? Why do you keep trying to divert away from it? You are on the spot.
How about you respectfully, answer his question about Christ Jesus being the Word.
For some reason, you feel the need to "lord it over others" like some kind of bully?


Is this just a fundamentalist thing?
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:55 PM
 
20,450 posts, read 9,860,175 times
Reputation: 1683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I'm not pcamps and therefore not on the spot, but I am curious. Are you saying that you do not question that the Book of Revelation is the word of God because John, the author, said it was the word of God? That's what it seems to say here. If I am missing something, correct me.
He is not saying that John said that, he is claiming that God said it to Jesus, who said it to John, therefore, it must be true.
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:00 PM
 
Location: New England
32,302 posts, read 21,155,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
He is not saying that John said that, he is claiming that God said it to Jesus, who said it to John, therefore, it must be true.
So what you are saying is it went through all the necessary channels ?.
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:04 PM
 
Location: New England
32,302 posts, read 21,155,366 times
Reputation: 2293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
How about you respectfully, answer his question about Christ Jesus being the Word.
For some reason, you feel the need to "lord it over others" like some kind of bully?


Is this just a fundamentalist thing?
Mike is always and only on my case when it comes to dismissing the claim the bible is inerrant and infallible. Oh no he says it is not inerrant and infallible, quick let me breathe smoke out my nostrils and beat down this claim, because if they believe pcamps, God is going to lose it all.
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:10 PM
 
20,450 posts, read 9,860,175 times
Reputation: 1683
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
So what you are saying is it went through all the necessary channels ?.
That depends on the motivation of those reading, it's the spirit of the thing, not the thing itself that talks to me.
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