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Old 08-20-2018, 02:01 PM
 
20,402 posts, read 9,831,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You are a control freak, Mike, and the Bible means nothing to you except for your own view of it and your prideful ability to interpret it.
I find his interpretations to be of a personal nature, not as a representative of Christ.
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Old 08-20-2018, 02:03 PM
 
40,066 posts, read 26,744,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
It has been my experience that it's NOT God people turn-away from, it's religious fanaticism.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,494,131 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Watched the video... my comments

The gospel round 1

Incorrect assertion (1:57) - With the exception of Adam, we do not start life with an intimate relationship w/ God and then turn our back on Him. We are physically born dead to God. We don't choose to turn our back... we are already separated from God when we are physically born.

Incorrect assertion (2:23) - God turned His back on us. That's false. Otherwise, He would have not sent Christ - which was His plan from Genesis 3.

Incorrect assertion (3:29) - Jesus did not die to put wrath aside. He died as a sacrifice for sin because when there is sin there needs to be a death that pays for it. And Jesus' death is sufficient to pay for the sins of the entire world.

The gospel round 2

Incorrect assertion (6:23) - God does not push people away in judgment - this is not true. John 8. He told the Pharisees they would die in their sin. How come he can recall the first part of John 8 with the woman, but miss the latter part of chapter 8 when he judges the Pharisees?

So he seems to use false statements and attach them to certain people he thinks are associated with the first gospel. In other words - he sets up a straw man to knock down.
According to YOU, we are already judged.
The Gospel round 1

And apparently you believe that even a baby is a sinner bound for hell (no biblical verse denies that--not one ANYWHERE) So all those babies have gone to hell--or purgatory if the old Catholicism is followed.

Jesus did die to put wrath aside---absolutely. Have you not read His final words "Father forgive them for they know not what they do?" Are you saying Jesus' prayer to the Father was ignored? God just wouldn't listen to even His own Son?

I think you remain convicted by your own belief system.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,494,131 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, that would be you as the very fact that you are posting all of this in attempt to 'correct me' shows.
You are a control freak, Mike, and the Bible means nothing to you except for your own view of it and your prideful ability to interpret it.


From Peter Enns to you:
Quote:
"I've learned to accept this paradox: a holy book that more often than not doesn't act very much like you'd expect it, but more like a book written two thousand to three thousand years ago would act. I expect the Bible to reflect fully the ancient settings in which it was written, and therefore not act as a script that can simply be dropped into our lives without a lot of thought and wisdom.

The Bible must be thought through, pondered, tried out, assessed, and (if need be) argued with---all of which is an expression of faith, not evidence to the contrary."
Peter Enns, The Sin of Certainty, Chapter When "Uh-Oh" Becomes "Ah-Ha."


Sorry but you as much as openly admit Jesus just isn't that important to you. You don't obey Him, because you love the Bible and your view of it, not Jesus.


More from Enns that reflects your mindset:

Quote:
"And here is the risk of love. When we love as Jesus describes, we are changed because we are letting go a little bit of what we were holding to so dearly---in my case, being right and saying so. We relax our grip, step out of ourselves, and truly see things from the perspective of someone else, which is genuinely a selfless act.

But change is hard. We often prefer forcing change on others rather than looking at ourselves---seeing the speck in our neighbor's eye rather than the log in our own (Matthew 7:1-5). That's not love.
--------being right and winning isn't the endgame here. Loving as God loves is.
Ibid, Chapter, God Is Not My Father (emphasis mine)

Your pride is in how right you are, not in how humble you can be to Jesus' words and actions. I've apologized several times on these threads for not thinking through what I posted before I posted it (i.e. comparison of fundamentalist beliefs to those of Nazism).

Where have you ever apologized? And were you not given an opportunity by me to do that very thing when you called another poster a fool. Pride cometh before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction, that from the "perfect" Word of God.

My purpose in posting all this is to get you to see who you really are--and to apologize to the one you offended and get your heart right with Jesus.
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:24 PM
 
21,857 posts, read 16,696,582 times
Reputation: 8681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You are a control freak, Mike, and the Bible means nothing to you except for your own view of it and your prideful ability to interpret it.


From Peter Enns to you:
Peter Enns, The Sin of Certainty, Chapter When "Uh-Oh" Becomes "Ah-Ha."


Sorry but you as much as openly admit Jesus just isn't that important to you. You don't obey Him, because you love the Bible and your view of it, not Jesus.


More from Enns that reflects your mindset:

Ibid, Chapter, God Is Not My Father (emphasis mine)

Your pride is in how right you are, not in how humble you can be to Jesus' words and actions. I've apologized several times on these threads for not thinking through what I posted before I posted it (i.e. comparison of fundamentalist beliefs to those of Nazism).

Where have you ever apologized? And were you not given an opportunity by me to do that very thing when you called another poster a fool. Pride cometh before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction, that from the "perfect" Word of God.

My purpose in posting all this is to get you to see who you really are--and to apologize to the one you offended and get your heart right with Jesus.
Good grief. Go find something else to do with your life instead of trying to straighten everyone out.

Last edited by Mike555; 08-20-2018 at 05:19 PM..
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:40 PM
 
Location: New England
32,225 posts, read 21,111,453 times
Reputation: 2274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You are a control freak, Mike, and the Bible means nothing to you except for your own view of it and your prideful ability to interpret it.


From Peter Enns to you:
Peter Enns, The Sin of Certainty, Chapter When "Uh-Oh" Becomes "Ah-Ha."


Sorry but you as much as openly admit Jesus just isn't that important to you. You don't obey Him, because you love the Bible and your view of it, not Jesus.


More from Enns that reflects your mindset:

Ibid, Chapter, God Is Not My Father (emphasis mine)

Your pride is in how right you are, not in how humble you can be to Jesus' words and actions. I've apologized several times on these threads for not thinking through what I posted before I posted it (i.e. comparison of fundamentalist beliefs to those of Nazism).

Where have you ever apologized? And were you not given an opportunity by me to do that very thing when you called another poster a fool. Pride cometh before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction, that from the "perfect" Word of God.

My purpose in posting all this is to get you to see who you really are--and to apologize to the one you offended and get your heart right with Jesus.
To consider anything outside your bible beliefs is to question the bible(I mean God). Fear the bible, make sure you have above all things your beliefs 100% right, it's a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the bible. I know this is not what they literally say, but it is the gist of it.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,494,131 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Good grief. Go find something else to do with your life instead of trying to straighten everyone out.
My Father did not call me to give up on folks.

More Enns! You're right, I sure like Enns view of Scripture!!

Quote:
A faith that eats its own not only drives people out but also sends up a red flare to the rest of humanity that Christianity is just another exclusive members-only club, and that Jesus is a lingering relic of antiquity, rather than a powerful, present-defining spiritual reality; a means of gaining power rather than relinquishing it.
-----------
We can’t make Bible difficulties, the modern world, pain and suffering, or contact with other religions go away. But we can stop being mean and ugly. Anytime we want to. If we want to.

And we need to. Jesus says so. And the gospel really is at stake. People’s lives are at stake.
------------
There’s nothing like being subject to Christians of ill will to expose the dark underbelly of where the preoccupation with correct thinking can get you—and to begin seeing the value of a different kind of faith. Rather than being the end of faith, these moments can introduce us to a faith rooted in trust rather than certainty.
Peter Enns, The Sin of Certainty, Chapter When Christians Eat Their Own

You're on this thread but you don't have to be. If you're going to be here, you should be knowledgeable enough to accept to that criticism will come---as it has to the rest of us.

But your view of the Bible as infallible while rejecting the teaching of its content can be summed up in the words of a very public lawyer----"Truth isn't truth."
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:43 PM
 
21,857 posts, read 16,696,582 times
Reputation: 8681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
My Father did not call me to give up on folks.

More Enns! You're right, I sure like Enns view of Scripture!!

Peter Enns, The Sin of Certainty, Chapter When Christians Eat Their Own

You're on this thread but you don't have to be. If you're going to be here, you should be knowledgeable enough to accept to that criticism will come---as it has to the rest of us.

But your view of the Bible as infallible while rejecting the teaching of its content can be summed up in the words of a very public lawyer----"Truth isn't truth."
You'll get tired of it. But if you don't and you continue to harass me, I'll let the moderators deal with you.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:14 PM
 
21,857 posts, read 16,696,582 times
Reputation: 8681
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
You believe that because you WANT to believe it as the only thing on which your system of religion rests. Yes, Revelation was included by a majority vote of the incipient Catholic Church which then proceeded to expunge and/or redact all variant texts they could reach which did not match current doctrine. They missed a few. Hopefully one day you will encounter the "Advocate" and realize that there is no good reason to doubt the efficacy of that guidance.

In the meantime, in spite of your belief, there IS a third option in answering your assertion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No book of the New Testament was included in the canon because of a vote by any council. Long before the first church council was ever held the vast majority of the New Testament books (21 of them) were already in the canon. It was only the remaining six books about which there were doubts and debates. But over time they came to be recognized by more and more churches and church fathers as authoritative, and belonging in the canon.

Regarding the book of Revelation, even after the time of Eusebius it was argued whether that book belonged in the canon. Some churches accepted it, while others didn't. But even in the first canon list that we know of (not counting Marcions) the book of Revelation was included. That list is the Muratorian Canon which is dated to the last part of the second century AD.
4. The Epistle of Jude, indeed,³⁷ and two belonging to the above-named John-or bearing the name of John-are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour. We receive also the Apocalypse of John and that of Peter, though some amongst us will not have this latter read in the Church. The Pastor, moreover, did Hermas write very recently in our times in the city of Rome, while his brother bishop Plus sat in the chair of the Church of Rome. And therefore it also ought to be read; but it cannot be made public³⁸ in the Church to the people, nor placed among the prophets, as their number is complete, nor among the apostles to the end of time. Of the writings of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Miltiades, we receive nothing at all. Those are rejected too who wrote the new Book of Psalms for Marcion, together with Basilides and the founder of the Asian Cataphrygians.³⁹[Bolding mine]

Muratorian Canon (Roberts-Donaldson Translation)
As far as church councils go, there were three synods; the council of Hippo in AD 393, the council of Carthage in AD 397, and again in AD 419 in which formal recognition was given to the 27 books of the New Testament canon which were already broadly accepted by the church (though not by all).

Scholar F. F. Bruce writes,
In 393 a church council held in Augustine's see of Hippo laid down the limits of the canonical books along the lines approved by Augustine himself. The proceedings of this council have been lost but htey were summarized in the proceedings of the Third Council of Carthage (397), a provincial council. These appear to have been the first church councils to make a formal pronouncement on the canon. When they did so, they did not impose any innovation on the churches; they simply endorsed what had become the general consensus of the churches of the west and of the greater part of the east. [Bolding mine]

The Canon of Scripture, F.F. Bruce, p. 97
Pay attention to the bolded. The council simply endorsed what had already become the general consensus of the churches regarding the New Testament canon. As noted, the book of Revelation is listed even in the very earliest of the canon lists that we have, the Muratorian Canon which is dated to c. AD. 175. The New Testament canon as we have it today is the result not of a church council having voted, but because over time, there was a general consensus among the churches in which the canonical books were recognized as authoritative.

And your comment - ''Hopefully one day you will encounter the "Advocate" and realize that there is no good reason to doubt the efficacy of that guidance.'' conveys your judgmental opinion that those who don't agree with you don't have the Holy Spirit.

There are disagreements even among the best of theologians who are good men of God. Having the Holy Spirit does not guarantee agreement. And the Holy Spirit's guidance is based on the believer's knowledge of Bible doctrine. Not on subjective feelings.

The book of Revelation was stated by John to be the word of God. And so it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I have given the basis for determining the guidance of the Spirit and if a person's posts don't demonstrate it I can only make one assumption.

The biggest part of the theological disagreements are about things we have no need nor business to determine. As for the rest, I noted that it is easy to determine who is open to the Spirit and who comes with an agenda when that concern of the Spirit is discussed. You will NEVER see council determinations described as "Spirit guided because...."
What you did was make an inaccurate statement concerning the formation of the New Testament canon, after which you then proceeded to tell me that I don't have the spirit. And again, the New Testament canon was not the result of any council determination.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:27 PM
 
20,402 posts, read 9,831,311 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You'll get tired of it. But if you don't and you continue to harass me, I'll let the moderators deal with you.
Now, who is the one crying? LMAO

Last edited by Jerwade; 08-20-2018 at 06:48 PM..
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