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Old 08-28-2018, 12:46 PM
 
466 posts, read 103,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, that kind of sucks. I guess we must just be hardwired to be either bad or good and there's nothing we can do to change it.
We're hardwired to be bad because we are all descendants of Adam, and have therefore inherited the curse on humanity, through which the only way out is the perfect righteousness of Christ that is available to all who believe and are willing to receive through faith

A core takeaway from the gospel / bible / following Jesus is that none of us are good enough to get into Heaven on our own, and that's ok, because God loves us enough regardless and has made a way through Christ
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:50 PM
 
5,147 posts, read 2,534,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCHouseHunter View Post
We're hardwired to be bad because we are all descendants of Adam, and have therefore inherited the curse on humanity, through which the only way out is the perfect righteousness of Christ that is available to all who believe and are willing to receive through faith
A core takeaway from the gospel / bible / following Jesus is that none of us are good enough to get into Heaven on our own, and that's ok, because God loves us enough regardless and has made a way through Christ
Not only that none of us are good enough to get into Heaven on our own, but none of us are good enough to become part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as promised at Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11,29.

I find the way to Heaven was made for those of Luke 22:28-29; Revelation 20:6 who have a first or earlier resurrection.
No one who died before Jesus died have a heavenly calling (John 3:13) so their resurrection will be physical on Earth.
As for the living on Earth figurative humble 'sheep'-like people at the soon coming 'time of separation' on Earth of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 they can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth to be part of the humble meek to inherit the Earth. Thus, they can gain ' everlasting life on Earth ' as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:00 PM
 
5,147 posts, read 2,534,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCHouseHunter View Post
The bible doesn't teach free will
The bible teaches that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ
To me, we are all free to choose to be slaves to sin with death in view, or slaves to Christ with eternal life in view.
So, to me we are all free to act responsibly toward God or Not.
Just as Adam was free to choose to break God's Law or not.
Unlike animals, unless damaged we are born with a built-in conscience or compass.
With use the Bible can calibrate our conscience as a good compass can be calibrated to give good guidance.
If we had No free-will choices then there would be No need to give us the choice at 2nd Peter 3:9 to ' repent ' if we do Not wish to ' perish ' (be destroyed). Be destroyed as the wicked will be destroyed forever as Psalm 92:7 says.
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Where has anyone been promised free will? If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then things will only turn out exactly as God intended.
I find at Genesis 2:17 Adam was given free-will choices. Adam was Not forced to break God's Law.

Sure, God knows the happy Revelation climax of Revelation 22:2 that mankind on Earth will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of earth's nations, but as to who will be part of the humble meek to inherit the Earth belongs to us to choose. We can choose to act responsibly toward God or Not.

I find Jesus knew we have free-will choices because of what Jesus said at Matthew 24:13.
If we did Not have free-will choice then there would be No need to encourage us to endure to the end.

If already known then there would be No need for Jesus as Judge to judge between those who are the figurative humble ' sheep ' and haughty ' goats ' at the soon coming end ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
We are all free to choose as to how we treat people and treat Jesus' brothers ' of Matthew 25:40.
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:17 PM
 
5,147 posts, read 2,534,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, that kind of sucks. I guess we must just be hardwired to be either bad or good and there's nothing we can do to change it.
If we were hardwired to bad or good then there would be Not need for 2 Peter 3:9 to ' repent '.
A hardwired person could Not repent if they were hardwired to do bad.

Seems to me Jesus gave us a choice at John 15:14 when he used the word "if".
We can be Jesus' friends "if" we.......
Wouldn't "if" imply choice _______
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Old 08-28-2018, 03:19 PM
 
466 posts, read 103,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
If we were hardwired to bad or good then there would be Not need for 2 Peter 3:9 to ' repent '.
A hardwired person could Not repent if they were hardwired to do bad.

Seems to me Jesus gave us a choice at John 15:14 when he used the word "if".
We can be Jesus' friends "if" we.......
Wouldn't "if" imply choice _______
We only have the ability to receive God's grace through faith in Jesus, upon which we receive the Holy Spirit

It is then only through the Holy Spirit that we are able to truly repent

So, you are correct in that a hardwired 'bad' person can not truly repent in their own sinful flesh, but you are incorrect in the misunderstanding that a 'bad' person can still repent through the Holy Spirit within them

Such duality is the basic premise of following Christ
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Old 08-31-2018, 08:10 AM
Status: "Unfailing Love" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
3,287 posts, read 899,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
Many ETers feel they deserve heaven because they made the right choice. They think others deserve eternal torment because they didn't choose in time. It boggles the mind when you see how life is very unfair in this world - we are all born into different conditions, cultures, and many are taken away in tragedies at a young age, many born into horrible cultures in the middle east where the men are brutal to women, etc.... I could go on and on about how ridiculous it is for those ET believers to boast in themselves, but they do.
Dear Music of the Rain: Until one has managed to stand in the Presence, (good luck), you can huff and puff. However, one little excursion into Him knocks all the h & P into oblivion!

In our little neck of the woods, a young women died yesterday at the grand age of 43. She already had a lung transplant some years ago, and was in the process of a double lung transplant. She left a grieving husband & 2 young children behind. A similar story can be found in many places across the globe today. It does indeed boggle the mind & grieves our hearts. The great groan of creation continues!

The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free/ emancipated from the tyranny of change and decay!

ABBA: We wait before you with that promise bursting within!
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Old 08-31-2018, 09:41 AM
 
Location: central Florida
987 posts, read 356,916 times
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The question; 'Does Freewill prove endless punishment true?" is absurd.

The language is disjointed. The subjects are unconnected one with the other. It is, however, sufficient to be used as a ploy by some to avoid Biblical context with regard to both subjects and to assert the validity of one because of popular acceptance of the other.

A + C does not equal Z

ENDLESS PUNISHMENT DOGMA

As I stated in another thread, the Bible does NOT assert endless torture of the wicked after death. Quite the opposite, it speaks of total eradication and extinction. Scripture calls it the Second Death. The wicked are totally expunged from heaven and earth. There is no eternal life granted to the wicked so as to allow God to torture them. There is nothing left of them at all.

GOD IS NOT A VINDICTIVE SADIST.

Unfortunately many Christians believe He is.

Christians are dogmatically satisfied with holding two diametrically opposing views of logic in their minds. They will most emphatically give hurrahs to the utterance that God is love, but on the other hand welcome and embrace the pagan notion that God will enjoy torturing the wicked for eternity in some subterranean dungeon of horrors. Which is it folks? You can't have it both ways. It's a logical impossibility as well as Biblically incorrect.

Nowhere does the Bible affirm that man is immortal. Scripture says man is mortal. "Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return." - Genesis 3:19

Humans are creatures of clay. That's it and that's all. At death the human is immediately judged (Hebrews 9:27). Nowhere does the Bible state there is some indestructible spirit in man that goes on and on. That idea is pagan myth (re; Greek historian Herodotus - Encyclopedia Brittanica). It is NOT supported by the Bible at all. Man is mortal (Psalm 78:39) The dogma of eternal punishment depends upon the idea that some part of man survives death and encounters a vindictive angry god. There is no eternal punishment because man is not naturally immortal. There is no eternal punishment because the context of scripture states that God will put an end to sin. (Romans 6:23)

DEATH TO SIN

The dogma of hell suggests that God will somehow allow sin to continue forever albeit in a different place. According to the Bible, He will NOT. God's intention is to destroy sin and the wicked totally and utterly from heaven and earth.

The glory of the gospel is that God is willing to grant eternal life to those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior and who trust and obey Him. Everybody else suffers the Second Death - permanent extinction in the Lake of Fire.

FREEWILL

Many Christians have divided themselves into vehemently opposing camps of doctrine.

One one side are those who agree with John Calvin that Final Judgment is predetermined before one's birth. Regardless of personal preference, or so we are told, some will be raised to glory and some sentenced to destruction. These are generally referred to as 'the chosen'.

On the other side of the argument are those who agree with Jacobus Arminius that humans, despite their fallen condition, have the ability to accept the grace of God unto salvation. This ability to chose one's own final destiny is generally referred to as free will. These are generally referred to as 'the called'.

Many are called, but few are chosen. - Matthew 22:14

The sad logic of the argument is that both Calvin and Arminius were right and both were wrong. In as much as their particular assertions are restricted to a generic overall view of human destiny they are wrong, but if both are considered in light of Biblical context they each enjoy limited truth.

The Bible identifies the chosen. The chosen are the children of Israel - Jews.

"For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession." - Deuteronomy 7:6

The Bible also identifies the called. The called are gentiles who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.

"To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:" - Jude 1:1b

Together these two groups form the body of Christ - those who are justified by the blood of the savior shed upon the cross - Jewish believers and gentile believers alike.

"even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:24

Neither free choice nor Calvinist predestination proves or disproves hell because the Bible simply doesn't say it exists at all. It is the Second Death, total and complete extinction, to which the wicked are sentenced. The chosen and the called enjoy paradise with Christ Jesus together.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Last edited by Choir Loft; 08-31-2018 at 09:56 AM..
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Old 08-31-2018, 02:05 PM
 
435 posts, read 117,055 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
The question; 'Does Freewill prove endless punishment true?" is absurd.
Choir Boy,

Perhaps you should have read beyond the title to understand its real meaning?

But, of course, then, why would you? You are not here to engage the OP but, as many other annihilationists i've seen on forums, propagate the endless Hitler ("total eradicator") God you believe in.

You slander the One True God, Love Omnipotent, making Him into an eternal Hitler who not only gasses to death those He doesn't love, but makes sure the Hitler-like gas effect lasts for eternity. Thus your "God", unlike the True God of the Sacred Scriptures, is a Hitler for eternity. The eternal Hitler "God".

It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

As someone said:

"annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/un...versalism.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:31 PM
Status: "be angry and sin not!" (set 7 days ago)
 
4,697 posts, read 1,222,674 times
Reputation: 244
I think hell itself ( no matter how long or short ) proves free will true..way too many NDE prove there is a hell going on right now.

and I think that the annihilation that is coming one time ... proves God has a free will also.

in that he can accept or even reject whoever he wishes. because he knows the hidden thoughts of a man.. .
though I know he wishes ( like most Christians do too ) that all would repent and turn and be made fully alive by His spirit.
so it says people won't do it.. .

and so there is plan A amendment -B and to be fair/ just . I do believe He gave men free will so that He can have a free will too. everything else short of those truths is slavery.
and only those who chose to love will love, or will be capable of love. ..
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