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As far as Adam and Eve are concerned, though, God knew it was a possibility that they would reject Him, but still took the risk of putting a way out in an easy to find place.
Arguably it was not a possibility that A & E would sin, but determined. The first Adam was a soulish man (1 Cor.15:45-46) & Scripture says the soulish man cannot know the things of the Spirit God:
1 Cor.2:14 But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned.
Furthermore:
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
I would imagine it was perfect, and very good.
Please provide Scripture that says Adam's relationship with God was "perfect, and very good".
OTOH there is this viewpoint:
Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
They would have had the same kind of relationship that those who will exist with Him for all eternity will have with Him (if slightly different in that we will have already chosen to be with Him, and wouldn't even consider rejecting Him).
In other words, a better relationship than ours is, but with the potential to be even better.
Is there nothing in Scripture that backs up that guesswork.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Perhaps not directly, no. But it is based on what the rest of scripture says.
I don't see any support in Scripture for your assumptions about the garden of Eden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
But God is NOT impotent. His plan was, from whenever He decided to create this universe we live in, that if His creation rebelled, God the Father would send His Son, who would go willingly, to die for all mankind to redeem His creation.
I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's omipotentce. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Omnipotent suddenly becomes impotent to save anyone who died in their sins:
In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
And yet, He would still honor the decision of those who reject Him, and allow them to exist apart from him. The ONLY other alternative is to be like the man in the first scenario above, and hold those captive who don't want to be with Him.
The other alternative is to seek the lost coin & lost sheep...till he find them (Luke 15). Or do you think God's love has an expiry date like a carton of milk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
There IS no other way. That's why He went to the Cross. It's not possible for God to destroy something that He designed to last for eternity.
So once again you make God impotent. Or too stupid to make man in such a way that He is able to annihilate the poor wretches out of existence, rather than see them tortured for all eternity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
A husband and wife (and this tragedy is a true story, happened to a friend of a friend) found out that their son was molesting their daughter. They love them both dearly, but in order to protect their daughter, they had to send their son away and disown him, prohibiting him from ever seeing or coming near her again.
That's the same situation God is in. He loves everyone dearly, but in order to protect those who love Him, He must send away eternally those who would do them (and Him) harm.
He can't be compassionate to both, because then both parties would be harmed.
He can seek the abusing sheep till He find him. Then those sheep can be reconciled with those other sinners that they abused & live happily ever after. He is not impotent like human beings are who are incapable of resolving such issues as you describe. You lower Love Omnipotent to the level of weak, impotent & powerless human beings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
The pagan greek concept of omnipresence is what I reject. God can be anywhere He wants to be, and is not forced by some pagan term to be where He doesn't want to be.
In Him human beings live & move & have their being. Why should it be otherwise for those in "hell"?
I asked:
"Why would Love Omnipotent tell people to depart into what He knows will be endless torments with no hope of salvation for all eternity? Why not say to them, instead, Come to Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Because they were given how many opportunities to hear His call throughout their lifetime? ten? a hundred? a thousand? a million? a billion? God has given everyone an entire lifetime to come to Him. Which is why death is the cutoff point to make their decision, and after this the judgement.
That's no reason why He makes death a cutoff. Does God's love expire like a carton of milk?
I asked:
"What if when He tells them to depart that they don't want to? Isn't it your position that God will not force people like a rapist?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
It's also yours, if I read your response above correctly.
Except in my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved. But in your view Love Omnipotent's love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you're making God the rapist you described.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
If someone has made their decision to reject God, and die before they change their mind, God isn't going to give them another chance, again, because it would be counterproductive.
Once again your God is the rapist, forcing people away from him who don't want to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
If God were to give everyone a second chance, or third, fourth, fifth, etc., to repent after death, then no one would repent, because they would put it off until just before their chance ran out, and then demand that God give them another chance.
Who says they'll (1) put it off or (2) know when "their chance ran out"? People in this life don't know when "their chances run out", so how would they know postmortem? If they (3) "put it off", i.e. getting saved, then they continue in "hell" in torments until they do accept Christ. The longer they put it off, the longer their torments will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
God is fair, and therefore, in the interest of fairness, death is the deadline (no pun intended (ok, maybe it was)) for choosing sides.
You call "fair" endless infinite torments for finite sins of a momentary lifetime?
I posted:
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
First of all, who said this?
Second, whoever said this believes in the God of scenario 1.
1] some forum member
2] i'm not so sure about that
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Mercy and judgment are not diametrically opposed, and certainly not in the Bible.
Do you suppose "mercy triumphs over judgement" means they are kissing each other?
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Js.2:13)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Those who accept God and love Him are shown mercy and given grace. Those who reject Him will be cast into the lake of fire, so that their one desire, to be apart from God, can be granted.
What if they change their mind & decide they want salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
And yet, not all will want God's love.
Says who?
I posted:
Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
For those who love God, heaven is being with God, and hell is being apart from God.
For those who hate God, hell is being with God and those who love Him, and heaven is being apart from God.
How does that address the question. You said in hell the wicked will be tormented by the knowledge of rejecting God. Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right? Or does God force/rape them to think thoughts that will torment them forever?
Does He remove their freewill to choose Him. Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin, thereby forcing them like one controls a puppet to stay in heaven forever?
I posted:
I wonder who is slamming that door shut, forever. The One Who cuts off communications forever in saying depart forever?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
No, the one who rejects God is the one slamming the door shut, locking it and throwing away the key. It closes for good when a person dies, but since God would rather men repent and come to Him than they suffer for eternity, up until their death, if they so choose, they can reopen it. God patiently waits at the door, knocking, asking if He can come in. But if the person dies first, that door cannot be reopened, because the only way to open it is on the inside.
What if those in hell decide they want salvation?
I asked:
So all those who never heard the gospel are going to be damned forever, even if they would have believed if they had ever heard it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Romans 2 talks about that.
Also, "the heavens declare the glory of God," and "to whom much is given, much is required, and to whom little is given, little is required" apply as well.
So people can die without believing in Jesus & still accept Him postmortem?
In conclusion your views leads to either
1) God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
2) God's love expires like a carton of milk, or
3) God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
4) God is like a rapist, or
5) Some or all of the above.
You try to dress up "endless conscious torments" (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT "God".
We do not have free will. We have a will that is subjected to futility.
Romans Chapter 8
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
This is why God will save all in the ages to unfold:
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, whoi have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”j
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Arguably it was not a possibility that A & E would sin, but determined. The first Adam was a soulish man (1 Cor.15:45-46) & Scripture says the soulish man cannot know the things of the Spirit God:
1 Cor.2:14 But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned.
Furthermore:
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
Please provide Scripture that says Adam's relationship with God was "perfect, and very good".
OTOH there is this viewpoint:
Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?
Is there nothing in Scripture that backs up that guesswork.
I don't see any support in Scripture for your assumptions about the garden of Eden.
I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's omipotentce. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Omnipotent suddenly becomes impotent to save anyone who died in their sins:
In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.
The other alternative is to seek the lost coin & lost sheep...till he find them (Luke 15). Or do you think God's love has an expiry date like a carton of milk?
So once again you make God impotent. Or too stupid to make man in such a way that He is able to annihilate the poor wretches out of existence, rather than see them tortured for all eternity.
He can seek the abusing sheep till He find him. Then those sheep can be reconciled with those other sinners that they abused & live happily ever after. He is not impotent like human beings are who are incapable of resolving such issues as you describe. You lower Love Omnipotent to the level of weak, impotent & powerless human beings.
In Him human beings live & move & have their being. Why should it be otherwise for those in "hell"?
I asked:
"Why would Love Omnipotent tell people to depart into what He knows will be endless torments with no hope of salvation for all eternity? Why not say to them, instead, Come to Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?"
That's no reason why He makes death a cutoff. Does God's love expire like a carton of milk?
I asked:
"What if when He tells them to depart that they don't want to? Isn't it your position that God will not force people like a rapist?"
Except in my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved. But in your view Love Omnipotent's love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you're making God the rapist you described.
Once again your God is the rapist, forcing people away from him who don't want to be.
Who says they'll (1) put it off or (2) know when "their chance ran out"? People in this life don't know when "their chances run out", so how would they know postmortem? If they (3) "put it off", i.e. getting saved, then they continue in "hell" in torments until they do accept Christ. The longer they put it off, the longer their torments will be.
You call "fair" endless infinite torments for finite sins of a momentary lifetime?
I posted:
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
1] some forum member
2] i'm not so sure about that
Do you suppose "mercy triumphs over judgement" means they are kissing each other?
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Js.2:13)
What if they change their mind & decide they want salvation?
Says who?
I posted:
Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right?
How does that address the question. You said in hell the wicked will be tormented by the knowledge of rejecting God. Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right? Or does God force/rape them to think thoughts that will torment them forever?
Does He remove their freewill to choose Him. Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin, thereby forcing them like one controls a puppet to stay in heaven forever?
I posted:
I wonder who is slamming that door shut, forever. The One Who cuts off communications forever in saying depart forever?
What if those in hell decide they want salvation?
I asked:
So all those who never heard the gospel are going to be damned forever, even if they would have believed if they had ever heard it?
So people can die without believing in Jesus & still accept Him postmortem?
In conclusion your views leads to either
1) God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
2) God's love expires like a carton of milk, or
3) God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
4) God is like a rapist, or
5) Some or all of the above.
You try to dress up "endless conscious torments" (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT "God".
No, Love Omnipotent isn't a magician. He's far more powerful than that. He's a miracle worker!
These many solar systems & billions of stars don't look like the work of an impotent god or one who will lose a war of the wills with weak little human beings:
I came across your convo with JudgeRightly, and I wanted to respond to some of what you guys were speaking on. Concerning the first couple, we shouldn't go by what many believe, which is the fact that they were created in a literal 7 days. Because Jehovah God... and I'm sure Jesus, doesn't see days as humans sees it ,(2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day). My point, NO ONE actually knows how long those two especially Adam, were on Earth before they sinned against Jehovah God ,(Exo. 6:3). you asked him to...”Please provide Scripture that says Adam's relationship with God was "perfect, and very good". It would seem to me, that up until the point of him sinning, he had a “Good relationship” with God. Everyone speak of “GOD”, but seem to always ignore satan. Who plays a big part in all the sins AND LIES, we've come to believe.
MANY of us seem to believe “God“ thinks as humans does, but his thinking excel far beyond the human mind ,(Isa. 55:8,9- For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts). That being said, a human can lay stacks of hundreds, on his table, leave his house while his friend's there. With the thought of seeing how truer friend he is. Jehovah isn't a mere human, he doesn't has negative thoughts, though if he wanted, he could. But everything good he wants us to be, he is. He would NEVER tempt humans with bad intentions ,(James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempt he any man). He put that tree there to say, I gave you the best ,this is NO different than those, except that it's MINE, don't touch! He expected obedience, Never thinking they will touch it. Because again, his way of thinking far exceeds ours.
It's very “possible” that God would destroy those who “designed to last for eternity” do he want to ?, NO! ,(Ezek. 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live). But if one refuse to obey JESUS FATHER, as Jesus stated, they won't make it. And this INCUDES, some calling themselves “Christians” ,(Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that do the will of my Father which is in heaven). Some have said, God doesn't have the Power to right the wrong, sad! They don't seem to understand, the ONLY reason why he seem slow or it seem as though he has NO power. Is because he's trying to give as MANY of us as he can to come to him ,(Isa. 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon).
Judge is right, Jehovah God has given us enough time to live as we pleased ,(1 Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries). If we refuse to change, that's on us! You asked...”Why not say to them, instead, Come to Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?" HE HAS! ,you just post it. But again, when the End hit, for those who DON'T WANT TO COME, it won't be pretty. And “HELL” , as in a literal fiery place where demons suppose to live as MANY have taught, there IS NO such place. When the war broke out in Heaven between Jesus and his Angels vs the dragon and his, they were kicked straight to Earth. “Christians” should know this ,(Rev.12:7-9 ,Rev.12:12 ,Rev. 12:13 “And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,...”).
When a wicked human just as a righteous who dies, their sins are paid in full by means of Jesus sacrificial death ,(Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord). Remember God told Adam that if he ate from the tree he will die? Humans were to live forever, Adams sin brought death to ALL humans ,(Rom.5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned). The false teaching of a “HELLFIRE” runs rapid, because even some “Christians” doesn't have accurate knowledge and understanding. There is a “HELL”, but it's also called “Sheol” which means a place for the dead, and NOT the wicked dead, but ALL who dies, it's a grave!
Here's scriptural proof of a few servants who already knew this ,(Psa.139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there). David prays to God, now if hell is a fiery place where demons resides, God touches nothing unclean. hell would be considered by God unclean, why would God be there? Again why would he let a faithful servant go there? He meant if he falls a sleep in death, Jehovah will still remember him, (as in resurrection). and Since many believe the wicked are tortured there, how would they even sleep? Then there's Jonah ,(Jonah 2:1,2 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and you heard my voice). He didn't mention seeing demons and fire, did he? He thought he would die there, in a since it would have been his grave.
and there's much more concerning what a "SOUL" really is and why it would be impossible for a "SOUL" to be tormented in a "Hellfire" for eternity. not to mention the misunderstanding of what Jesus meant when speaking of..."HELL" , "FIRE" , or the combining of the two. in which satan had man add in order to have MANY believing that if Jesus said it, it must be true! sorry for the long post, but it had to be, peace
And if, as you allege God "is certainly capable of working toward any goals He may have, and is indeed capable of overcoming any obstacles in His way", why is there an expiry date (a human's time of death) on His love & desire to save all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Because it would be unfair to give everyone more chances after death to accept Him.
Unfair to who? Will those in heaven feel it's unfair if those in hell, after suffering torments in hell & thereafter finding salvation in the Savior, are welcomed into heaven? Should Christians be bitter & cry about that? No doubt many eternal tormentists would answer "yes". Which brings to mind a parable Jesus spoke:
Luke 15:25Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
I posted:
Please provide Scripture that says Adam’s relationship with God was “perfect, and very good”.
OTOH there is this viewpoint:
Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?
A newborn baby could be described as "very good". It doesn't logically follow that your relationship with that baby is on the same level as with an adult or mature human being. Compared to the latter the relationship with the baby is quite imperfect. What parent would be satisfied if the relationship remained at the baby level forever.
Nothing in Gen.1:31 says Adam & Eve even had a relationship with God, let alone a relationship you described as "perfect, and very good" and as "They would have had the same kind of relationship that those who will exist with Him for all eternity will have with Him (if slightly different in that we will have already chosen to be with Him, and wouldn’t even consider rejecting Him)".
Without having a knowledge of good & evil, since they had not partaken of that tree, how would they know that God was good? Or how would they know what good is, since they had nothing - no evil - to contrast it with? So how could they thank or praise Him for His goodness?
Consider this opinion:
"In 11:32, 36, Paul does not consider the Fall from the perspective of our willful disobedience, but from the perspective of God’s providential plan in which humanity is imprisoned and about which humanity therefore has no choice. In this respect, it is important to note that only the Fall empowers humanity to become “godlike” and thus to be able to discern the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:22). Do you actually believe that God would have preferred Adam and Eve not to become godlike and not to be capable of discerning good from evil?"
" “God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).” Here Paul considers the Fall from the perspective that it was always God’s plan to imprison us with a fallen nature that would make us disobey Him. Most Christians assume that God wanted Adam and Eve to resist the forbidden fruit, but this assumption implies that God didn’t want them to become “like God” and to become capable of discerning good from evil (Genesis 3:22). How, then, can God be just if our sinful nature is guaranteed by divine decree? Because God’s purpose is that all of us ultimately benefit from His mercy and grace!"
I posted:
Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
I'm not sure what your point is here, could you clarify?
The point is there is no hint in Genesis of Adam & Eve having a spiritual relationship with God. Not, at least, until after the fall.
I posted:
I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's omipotentce. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Omnipotent
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
At this point, I'm going to call your use of "omnipotent" here question begging, because Scripture does not say God has all power, it says he delegates authority (power) to certain entities within His creation. God is infinitely powerful, of course, but that doesn't mean He has all power.
Your objection seems trivial & inconsequential, but I'll rephrase my question:
I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's infinite power. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Almighty suddenly becomes impotent to save anyone who died in their sins:
In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
It's because they died rejecting Him that God cannot save them.
Why is that? Has Love Omnipotent lost His power to save after a person's death? Does death somehow freeze a person's soul so that it can no longer change? Does God's goodness, mercy & love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
He is not the God of injustice, but of justice.
It would be unjust to allow someone who died rejecting Him, unforgiven, to live with Him forever.
Is there an expiry date when God no longer has any forgiveness to give, even if someone repented postmortem?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
If someone dies without accepting God's gift, then the only alternative is death, separation from God.
What of those who never believed while alive, but would have believed if they had heard the gospel? Will they fry forever or be saved postmortem?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Calling God a fool isn't going to bode well for you on Judgment day.
I was referring to a false god & the foolish way it made human beings:
In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
God can only do so much, but He can't make the decision to accept Christ for man. Man is the only one who can make that decision.
What's stopping him from making a decision for Christ postmortem?
Will aborted babies be given the choice to make a choice for, or against, Christ postmortem? Or will they be forced into heaven whether they want to or not, whether born again or not, with or without their sinful nature, & with or without demons possessing them?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Again, there's only so much God can do.
What's stopping Him from offering salvation to those in hell?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
As I stated before, to create something that lasts for eternity, it must be indestructible. And if it is indestructible, then God Himself cannot destroy it, because then it would be destructible, and not indestructible, and would therefore not last for eternity.
That argument fails since the soul doesn't need to be indestructible to last for eternity. So the objection still remains as to why a loving God would make human souls indestructible if he knew that many (or any) human would (or might) then end up in endless torments. If He were a wise & loving, instead of a stupid & foolish creator, he would have made them destructible. Then, instead of being forced to let humans suffer endless torments, he could have mercy on them & annihilate them out of existence, so they wouldn't have to suffer forever.
Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
So no, God is unable to annihilate any man. Which ties in with what Jesus said in Gethsemane: "if there be any other way, let this cup pass; but if there is no other way, Father, Your will be done."
You haven't established any logical connection between the two.
Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God ALL is possible.
Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."
I posted re postmortem salvation:
He can seek the abusing sheep till He find him. Then those sheep can be reconciled with those other sinners that they abused & live happily ever after. He is not impotent like human beings are who are incapable of resolving such issues as you describe. You lower Love Omnipotent to the level of weak, impotent & powerless human beings.
I also asked:
Why would Love Omnipotent tell people to depart into what He knows will be endless torments with no hope of salvation for all eternity? Why not say to them, instead, Come to Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?
That's no reason why He makes death a cutoff. Does God's love expire like a carton of milk?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Do you remember what happened when God showed Pharaoh in Egypt those miracles? Do you remember what happened to Pharaoh?
Do you have a point to make?
I posted:
What if when He tells them to depart that they don't want to? Isn't it your position that God will not force people like a rapist?
Except in my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Except that's not what scripture says:
Already addressed in a separate post. Moreover, i was addressing your assumptions & logical arguments related to your theory that the garden of Eden account refutes universalism. Which, BTW, you've failed to prove.
I posted:
But in your view Love Omnipotent's love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you're making God the rapist you described.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Except I'm not, nor did God's love "expire."
Then what will keep Him from evangelizing those in hell? His impotence?
Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son. (Gen.18:14)
Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God ALL is possible.
Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
God still loves those who died rejecting Him.
He doesn't love them, since he foolishly made them indestructible & capable of, & with a high chance for, suffering indestructible endless torments. Moreover, He does nothing to evangelize them in hell, but leaves them alone to rot & suffer there forever. Which is a long, long time to suffer. Truly such a god is the opposite of loving. And insane.
I posted:
Once again your God is the rapist, forcing people away from him who don't want to be.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Except that they don't want to be with Him.
Not while they were alive, perhaps. But why not give them an opportunity to change their mind postmortem?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
They rejected God, so God grants their wish of being separated from Him.
What if they change their mind postmortem? Then your God will still reject them, so he is the rapist you described, since he is forcing people away from him who don't want to be away from him, but wit him. So you're God is just like the Calvinist God you described as a forcing rapist.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
If someone is given an infinite number of chances to repent of their sin, since man is basically evil and rejects God naturally, then man will inherently reject God every chance they get, because they have an infinite number of chances afterwards to get it right. It would allow them to remain in their rebellion against God. And then when God would condemn them for not repenting, they would point their fingers at God and demand that he give them another chance, because he's already given them X number of chances.
You assume:
(1) they will somehow know they have an infinite number of chances. The fact is that God doesn't have to give them that knowledge. So your whole argument fails right there.
(2) you ignore the fact that they are suffering in hell which naturally motivates a human to want to end that suffering. Since salvation is the only way to do so, they must seek & find salvation to be delivered from their sufferings. With God's mercy, grace & evangelism in hell, they will be able to make choices for or against salvation. If they refuse salvation, then their sufferings in hell will justly continue.
I said:
People in this life don't know when "their chances run out", so how would they know postmortem?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
The only one here who says "no one knows when their chances would run out" is you, Greg.
What is that supposed to mean, that you have no rational answer to my comment?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Do you know what the term "opportunity cost" means?
Do you have a point to make?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Don't humble yourself before God in this life, then you will be humbled by Him in the next, and then because your name isn't in the Lamb's Book of Life, you will be cast into the Lake of Fire, along with Satan and the Antichrist, and those who took the mark of the beast, and with death and all of hell.
And thereafter God will be "all in all" & all in Adam will be "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19, etc), so everyone will be in the book of life.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
You seem to think that God is the one doing the tormenting. As I've explained above, God isn't there, so He can't be tormenting anyone.
Evidently that was false, since you say they'll have freewill in hell to choose God, but God will force them to stay in hell anyway, thus making your "God" the tormentor for eternity & the endless rapist you described. Furthermore you said those in hell would be tormented by their thoughts of rejecting God, but what if they decided to always think happy thoughts instead? Then wouldn't hell become heaven. But, no, according to you they'll have these tormenting thoughts forever, so it must be your God forcing them to have those thoughts. Thereby making him the rapist you described once again.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
The "fire" in the lake of fire isn't a chemical reaction. It's the emotional pain of being permanently separated from their Creator. It's the pain of loneliness. It's the pain of realizing you were wrong, and now have to live with the consequences of your decision.
Who is forcing people in hell to be alone & separated from their friends in hell? What if they want to communicate with others there? Your "God" is forbidding it, once again causing their pain. Again, he is the rapist you described, forcing others against their will.
In my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved. But in your view Love Omnipotent’s love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you’re making God the rapist you described.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Sins are not finite.
Man's mortal life premortem is finite. He can only commit a finite number of murders in such a life. He can only break the 10 commandments a finite number of times in that finite life. So his sins are finite within a finite time frame.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
And again, how many opportunities is one given in an average lifetime? The number is too high to count. And yet, people still choose to rebel against God, their Creator.
Really? Where are these ideas coming from? Some people never hear the gospel in a lifetime. Unless the Lord draws a man, it's impossible for him to come to God. Saul, who was a persecutor, inquisitionist & muderer of Christians said he had acted ignorantly. Jesus said on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".
I posted:
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
I posted:
What if they change their mind & decide they want salvation?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
What makes you say that they would?
You said those suffering in hell will have freewill to choose God. Why wouldn't they? Unless your "God" is force-raping them to be tormented forever.
I posted:
Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
I was partly agreeing with you.
So now your "partly agreeing" with the possibility of universal salvation, eh?
I posted:
How does that address the question. You said in hell the wicked will be tormented by the knowledge of their rejecting God. Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right? Or does God force/rape them to think thoughts that will torment them forever?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
You're getting into an area of discussion that is more hypothetical than logical.]
I don't know what they'll think, let alone why. I know that the realization of reality that they are now separated from everyone and everything, including their Creator, will eventually set in.
Who is bringing that upon them, if they are willed against it & thinking happy thoughts in hell? Will your "God" overpower their positive thinking & force-rape them to think thoughts that will torment them? Who, then, is the real tormentor?
I asked:
Does He remove their freewill to choose Him.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
No.
I asked:
Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin,
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
No.
I asked:
Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin, thereby forcing them like one controls a puppet to stay in heaven forever?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
No, those who love Him will not rebel, just like God the Father willingly loves the Son and Holy Spirit, and God the Son willingly loves the Father and Holy Spirit, and God the Holy Spirit willingly loves the Father and Son.
Why couldn't the saints in heaven choose to rebel just like Lucifer & his angels in heaven chose to rebel? Is God forcing the saints to stay in heaven whether they will it or not? Does freewill only matter before death? And then after death it's God force-raping everyone?
I posted:
I wonder who is slamming that door shut, forever. The One Who cuts off communications forever in saying depart forever?
What if those in hell decide they want salvation?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
What makes you assume they would want it?
Wouldn't you want to be saved from your torments?
I asked:
So all those who never heard the gospel are going to be damned forever, even if they would have believed if they had ever heard it?
So people can die without believing in Jesus & still accept Him postmortem?
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
No, that's not what Romans 2 says.
Says what? Unbelievers can be saved postmortem? Or they're damned even if they would have believed the gospel, if they had ever heard it, but they didn't hear it?
I posted:
In conclusion your views leads to either:
1. God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
2. God’s love expires like a carton of milk, or
3. God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
4. God is like a rapist, or
5. Some or all of the above.
You try to dress up “endless conscious torments” (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT “God”.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
His love never ends, but He isn't a magician.
No, Love Omnipotent isn't a magician. He's far more powerful than that. He's a miracle worker!
These many solar systems & billions of stars don't look like the work of an impotent god or one who will lose a war of the wills with weak little human beings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwmT_Sskaek
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Neither annihilationism nor universalism are possibilities because of what Christ said in Gethsemane in His prayer to the Father.
This makes even less sense than your argument re the garden of Eden refuting universalism.
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Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
Rejection of God is inherently harmful to those who reject Him and the people around them, and so God must separate those who will inevitably harm themselves and those around themfrom Him and those who love Him.
He doesn't do that in this life, so why would he separate those in hell from one another, & their friends there, except to cause them the suffering of loneliness? Making your "God", once again, the cause of torments. And the force-rapist you described.
Why the need to separate Himself from the harmful in hell? Is your "God" too impotent to handle it? Will those in hell harm "Him"?
In conclusion i'll reaffirm even more strongly my previous conclusions:
In conclusion your views leads to either:
1. God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
2. God’s love expires like a carton of milk, or
3. God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
4. God is like a rapist, or
5. Some or all of the above.
You try to dress up “endless conscious torments” (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT “God”.
Many ETers feel they deserve heaven because they made the right choice. They think others deserve eternal torment because they didn't choose in time. It boggles the mind when you see how life is very unfair in this world - we are all born into different conditions, cultures, and many are taken away in tragedies at a young age, many born into horrible cultures in the middle east where the men are brutal to women, etc.... I could go on and on about how ridiculous it is for those ET believers to boast in themselves, but they do.
Stupid question from me... why is the OP just allowed to make a ton of responses to someone who hasn't even posted in this thread?
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When the war broke out in Heaven between Jesus and his Angels vs the dragon and his, they were kicked straight to Earth. “Christians” should know this ,(Rev.12:7-9 ,Rev.12:12 ,Rev. 12:13 “And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,...”).
