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Old 09-02-2018, 12:31 PM
 
20,421 posts, read 9,840,546 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
What do you have? A correct translation of the bible and heart of vengeance towards all who do not believe in your vile doctrine of punishing them with so called eternal flames, get out of here. That in my opinion is the depraved mind the scriptures speak about which defiles you.
The deception runs deep within their theology.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:54 PM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,871,001 times
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Death comes to everyone, it will be knocking at your door in the near future; and surely you will die. So, yes, it is a "part of this life," whether you like it or not is irrelevant, you will close your eyes without a thought or a dream, as the time for death has not been eradicated! And, nowhere does it say anything about conscious eternal damnation. That in, and of itself is a syncretistic belief that has been mixed and blended into the Scriptures through various errors in translation. It is a concept that came from other cultures and their beliefs, and has nothing to do with Christianity or the love of God.
I choose truth instead of your philosophy and vain deceit.

Colassians 2

[6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:57 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 23,930,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
I choose truth instead of your philosophy and vain deceit.

Colassians 2

[6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
provided it can even be proven that your interpretation of the truth is factual.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:58 PM
 
20,421 posts, read 9,840,546 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Death comes to everyone, it will be knocking at your door in the near future; and surely you will die. So, yes, it is a "part of this life," whether you like it or not is irrelevant, you will close your eyes without a thought or a dream, as the time for death has not been eradicated! And, nowhere does it say anything about conscious eternal damnation. That in, and of itself is a syncretistic belief that has been mixed and blended into the Scriptures through various errors in translation. It is a concept that came from other cultures and their beliefs, and has nothing to do with Christianity or the love of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
I choose truth instead of your vain philosophy.

Colassians 2

[6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Actually, you have accepted the Philosophy, traditions and opinions of others.
And, quoting a verse or two from the Bible doesn't alter or change that fact.
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:24 PM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,871,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Actually, you have accepted the Philosophy, traditions and opinions of others.
And, quoting a verse or two from the Bible doesn't alter or change that fact.
Your hatred of the written Scriptures has been well documented, so what you preach is philosophy and vain deceit so prevalent nowadays.
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:45 PM
 
435 posts, read 117,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
I won't enter into a discussion with you, you seem to be set on doing satan's work in twisting the scriptures and misleading people to your own and their eternal peril.
Seem to be? You don't sound very sure of yourself.

How would anything i say be of "eternal peril" to others? Do I send people to "hell", or does God?

There are a number of reasons people believe in everlasting torment in hell. To mention a few:
1. lack of knowing the character of God
2. critical reading failure
3. indoctrination
4. vengeance mentality
5. lack of understanding how to do proper Exegesis

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/...0/saint-origen


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/0...t-perspective/

We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:51 PM
 
20,421 posts, read 9,840,546 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Death comes to everyone, it will be knocking at your door in the near future; and surely you will die. So, yes, it is a "part of this life," whether you like it or not is irrelevant, you will close your eyes without a thought or a dream, as the time for death has not been eradicated! And, nowhere does it say anything about conscious eternal damnation. That in, and of itself is a syncretistic belief that has been mixed and blended into the Scriptures through various errors in translation. It is a concept that came from other cultures and their beliefs, and has nothing to do with Christianity or the love of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
I choose truth instead of your philosophy and vain deceit.

Colassians 2

[6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Actually, you have accepted the Philosophy, traditions and opinions of others.
And, quoting a verse or two from the Bible doesn't alter or change that fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Your hatred of the written Scriptures has been well documented, so what you preach is philosophy and vain deceit so prevalent nowadays.
I do not hate the Scriptures, rather it's the way people use them that concerns me.
If you had a mind of your own without all the indoctrination, you might see that?
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Old 09-02-2018, 02:18 PM
 
Location: New England
32,239 posts, read 21,127,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I do not hate the Scriptures, rather it's the way people use them that concerns me.
If you had a mind of your own without all the indoctrination, you might see that?
You can't help but hate how the fundamentalists have screwed with the scriptures that our Heavenly Father now looks like the Devil they all fear.
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Old 09-02-2018, 03:31 PM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,177,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
What do you have ? A correct translation of the bible and heart of vengeance towards all who do not believe in your vile doctrine of punishing them with so called eternal flames, get out of here. That in my opinion is the depraved mind the scriptures speak about which defiles you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Death comes to everyone, it will be knocking at your door in the near future; and surely you will die. So, yes, it is a "part of this life," ... And, nowhere does it say anything about conscious eternal damnation. That in, and of itself is a syncretistic belief that has been mixed and blended into the Scriptures through various errors in translation. It is a concept that came from other cultures and their beliefs, and has nothing to do with Christianity or the love of God.

Preach.
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Old 09-02-2018, 03:31 PM
 
20,421 posts, read 9,840,546 times
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Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
You can't help but hate how the fundamentalists have screwed with the scriptures that our Heavenly Father now looks like the Devil they all fear.
Haunting season is around the corner for the timid and fearful.
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