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Old 09-05-2018, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,292 posts, read 5,500,064 times
Reputation: 4050

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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
No, you hate them; you just as well face it.

Matthew 12
[30] He that is not with me [Jesus] is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Depends---like the vast majority of Scriptures. The same Jesus you quoted in Matt. 12 also said:
Quote:
But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”
Luke 9:50

And an "evil" Satan was invented centuries after the Genesis account was written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
satan has been trying to tear down God's Word since the Garden of Eden. But, the penalty for sin was death then and it's still the penalty yet today. Don't let satan fool you too because the penalty will be be more than you can bear.
Quote:
Introduced as “the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that YHWH God had made,” the serpent in the Garden of Eden is portrayed as just that: a serpent. Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2–3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented. Explaining the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Satan would have been as foreign a concept to the ancient authors of the text as referring to Ezekiel’s vision as a UFO (but Google “Ezekiel’s vision” now, and you’ll see that plenty of people today have made that connection!). In fact, while the word satan appears elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, it is never a proper name; since there is no devil in ancient Israel’s worldview, there can’t yet have been a proper name for such a creature.

The noun satan, Hebrew for “adversary” or “accuser,” occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible: five times to describe a human military, political or legal opponent, and four times with reference to a divine being. In Numbers 22, the prophet Balaam, hired to curse the Israelites, is stopped by a messenger from Israel’s God YHWH, described as “the satan” acting on God’s behalf. In Job, “the satan” is a member of God’s heavenly council—one of the divine beings, whose role in Job’s story is to be an “accuser,” a status acquired by people in ancient Israel and Mesopotamia for the purposes of particular legal proceedings. In Job’s case, what’s on trial is God’s assertion that Job is completely “blameless and upright” vs. the satan’s contention that Job only behaves himself because God has rewarded him.
-----------
The word satan appears only once without “the” in front of it in the entire Hebrew Bible: in 1 Chronicles 21:1. Is it possible that we finally have Satan here portrayed? 1 Chronicles 21 parallels the story of David’s census in 2 Samuel 24, in which God orders David to “go number Israel and Judah” and then punishes king and kingdom for doing so. The Chronicler changes this story, as he does others, to portray the relationship between God and David as uncompromised; he writes that “a satan stood up against Israel and he provoked David to number Israel” (1 Chronicles 21:6–7; 27:24). Although it is possible to read “Satan” here instead of “a satan” (Hebrew uses neither uppercase letters, nor indefinite articles, e.g., “a”), nothing else in this story or in any texts for another 300 years indicates that the idea of an evil prince of darkness exists in the consciousness of the Israelites.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...-became-satan/
Satan was turned into an "evil" creature by early Christians. Until that occurred he was simply another servant in God's kingdom.


You might try getting a biblical education before spouting off in all your certainty about what "satan" is doing. If he is actually God's servant and messenger, then you have blasphemed him/her/it.
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Old 09-05-2018, 09:00 PM
 
Location: central Florida
987 posts, read 357,359 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
"I understand it is hard to grasp for many, but for 1000 years there was no Bible available at all for the common people who had to rely on a corrupt clergy, however even the worst translations contain the universalist verses and show that "for ever" is not always endless. It's only for a few years now where all people have access to all translations and even the source texts in their original languages."

Blindly relying on a bunch of biased versions cloned by the pro ECT advocates boys club is worth as much as a piece of toilet paper. If atheists shelled out to have printed 100 versions saying "God is dead" would you accept that because the 100 outnumber what other versions say?

Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously.

Dozens of English translations don't agree with those cloned by the endless tortures boys club.

Likewise the early church father Greek scholar universalists would have rejected your cloned excuses for translations. Better to call them paraphrases, interpretations or theologically driven opinions of what the originally inspired ancient language texts say.

Even your cloned theologically driven interpretative "versions" support universalism, which makes them self-contradictory, e.g.:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."
Considering the lack of respect you have displayed for those who endlessly copied scripture and passed it to us, I'm surprised that you refer to it at all.

Who is wasting their time, the scribes who copied by hand or you who seem to have nothing to say except to demonize them and to corrupt the meaning of God's Word.

The concept of hell is pagan, not original to the Bible.

The historian Eusebius (4th century AD) recorded that a fellow by the name of Miander replaced Simeon a one time sorcerer. This is the same Simeon mentioned in the book of Acts. Miander was a sorcerer as well, a conjurer of men's hearts as well as an entertainer (as it is to this day among celebrities).

Miander founded a sect, called themselves Christians and intermingled with the church. Among the many false doctrines they taught was a rejection of the resurrection and immortality of the spirit.

Eusebius wrote that many in his day accepted the doctrine of the immortality of the human spirit. So it was via this Simon the sorcerer in Acts through Miander that that Platonic ideology was further introduced within the brethren.

So it is to this day.

The doctrine of hell depends exclusively upon belief in an immortal human spirit WHICH THE BIBLE DENIES. In fact, the Bible says that man is mortal body mind and spirit.

Only God is immortal.

It is human nature to perish both in body and to be finally and totally exterminated in spirit - nothing remaining and no conscious awareness of death either in heaven or on earth. This then is the nature of the Second Death mentioned in the pages of the New Covenant - total extinction of the human spirit.

The glory and good news of the gospel is that God has chosen to bless with eternal life those few who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. The redeemed from death will inherit a new nature, not of this earth but of God. The new nature will be eternal life and few there will be who find it (according to Jesus).

It is only natural then that those who are perishing should render any false doctrine they can to cause the elect to stumble in their journey as disciples of Jesus.

The foundation ideology of the doctrine of hell is the immortality of the human spirit, but nowhere in the Bible does it say such a thing. The Bible says man is mortal, therefore there is no everlasting torment.

God is not a vindictive sadist.

Shall eternal life, however unpleasant, be granted to the sinner? The Bible says no.
Shall sin continue to exist in eternity even after God died on the cross to defeat it? The Bible says no.

DEATH TO SIN.

The Bible says sin shall end - one way or the other. Either a man or woman will repent of their sin and ask forgiveness or they shall perish for all time from heaven and earth. Let the reader consider the nature of God. Has He revealed anywhere in scripture that He intends sinners to continue a conscious existence? He has not. God has said He would destroy it utterly and completely. Not even ashes and smoke would remain. Does this sound like the traditional description of hell we are all so familiar with? It does not.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
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Old 09-05-2018, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,292 posts, read 5,500,064 times
Reputation: 4050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
Can you understand the glory of God's Holy justice? Can you understand that in His judgments, just as in His mercy, God is glorified, and the saints will rejoice? The fact that your whole being is filled with horror at that belief reveals your lack of understanding of spiritual things and especially of the depravity of man and the holiness and righteousness of God. It also reveals you have yet to repent of your sin and put your trust wholly in the Saviour Jesus Christ, you have yet to be born again and so to receive eternal life - and I truly pray you will before you will have to face the judgment and eternal misery you are trying to deny so hard.
Even today we are able to see that "punishment" does not bring about repentance of any kind. Look at what comes out of our prison systems so infused with a punishment agenda as a "warning" to avoid committing crime. Most often those who come out commit even MORE crimes.

We tell our government officials we don't want criminals to be treated fairly. We want loooonnnnngggg sentences and no parole. We like throwing away the key once they go to jail for the third time even for relatively minor offenses.

What has been the outcome? Overcrowding of prisons, frequently degradation of some criminals by other criminals, and institutions that are relatively unsafe for the guards and social workers running them.
Quote:
"Evidence is limited on the crime prevention effects of most of the policies that contributed to the post-1973 increase in incarceration rates. Nevertheless, the evidence base demonstrates that lengthy prison sentences are ineffective as a crime control measure," the report noted.

Instead, the report argues that the certainty and imminence of punishment are more likely to deter crime than length. In a Hawaii program, for example, offenders on probation who faced the certain, but brief, punishment of one to two days of confinement for failing drug tests had far fewer positive tests than offenders who didn't face that punishment.
https://www.businessinsider.com/repo...r-crime-2014-5

Quote:
Over-punishment and prosecutorial abuse also disproportionately affect lower class citizens.
https://world.wng.org/2016/04/evange...right_on_crime

So how has "punishment" worked. If many of us stupid people can see it doesn't work is your god such an idiot that he doesn't see it too?

God would dish out a lot more "punishment" if it ever worked. Instead He sent a Son who said we shouldn't fight evil with evil. Who looked to provide forgiveness seventy time seven. Who stated that if someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him your other.

Punishment, nor fear of it, brings no one closer to Christ. It is love, forgiveness, and acceptance in the face of all our "evil" doings that attracts people to Jesus.

Trouble is, there are no evangelicals much into displaying anything but more "warnings" to people who need Good News.
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Old 09-10-2018, 01:18 PM
 
4,255 posts, read 1,630,100 times
Reputation: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
"I understand it is hard to grasp for many, but for 1000 years there was no Bible available at all for the common people who had to rely on a corrupt clergy, however even the worst translations contain the universalist verses and show that "for ever" is not always endless. It's only for a few years now where all people have access to all translations and even the source texts in their original languages."

Blindly relying on a bunch of biased versions cloned by the pro ECT advocates boys club is worth as much as a piece of toilet paper. If atheists shelled out to have printed 100 versions saying "God is dead" would you accept that because the 100 outnumber what other versions say?

Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously.

Dozens of English translations don't agree with those cloned by the endless tortures boys club.

Likewise the early church father Greek scholar universalists would have rejected your cloned excuses for translations. Better to call them paraphrases, interpretations or theologically driven opinions of what the originally inspired ancient language texts say.

Even your cloned theologically driven interpretative "versions" support universalism, which makes them self-contradictory, e.g.:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

The religion that came out of Rome that held councils because they did not know truth translated-every trinity translation. They did all the translating. By the time anyone else did, no originals remained--their translating remained. They as well brought in statues, icons and graven images into their churches and homes because they cannot understand English. They as well brought in the cross--gave 2 celebrations to Jesus and allowed pagan practices off the table of demons into them, so that Jesus would never accept them. They portray Jesus bringing dishonor to his Father and self by having long hair on him in their pics of him= pure darkness. 100% fact--it was a dishonor for a jewish male to have long hair--only the Nazarites had that permission( Samson) Jesus was not a Nazarite, he was a Nazarene. So all are putting their eternal lives on their translations being truth. The only other translation= the JW translation--made after many men studied, the bible, facts of history, facts of OT God worship history, language--They corrected the errors. They had to. otherwise this couldn't be a truth-Daniel 12:4
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:47 PM
 
40,098 posts, read 26,761,498 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
"I understand it is hard to grasp for many, but for 1000 years there was no Bible available at all for the common people who had to rely on a corrupt clergy, however even the worst translations contain the universalist verses and show that "for ever" is not always endless. It's only for a few years now where all people have access to all translations and even the source texts in their original languages."

Blindly relying on a bunch of biased versions cloned by the pro ECT advocates boys club is worth as much as a piece of toilet paper. If atheists shelled out to have printed 100 versions saying "God is dead" would you accept that because the 100 outnumber what other versions say?

Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously.

Dozens of English translations don't agree with those cloned by the endless tortures boys club.

Likewise the early church father Greek scholar universalists would have rejected your cloned excuses for translations. Better to call them paraphrases, interpretations or theologically driven opinions of what the originally inspired ancient language texts say.

Even your cloned theologically driven interpretative "versions" support universalism, which makes them self-contradictory, e.g.:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:06 AM
 
435 posts, read 117,138 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
Considering the lack of respect you have displayed for those who endlessly copied scripture and passed it to us, I'm surprised that you refer to it at all.
My post wasn't about those ancients who copied MSS, but relatively recent English mis translations by those who were biased to the endless punishment dogmas & forced their biases into their so-called translations, thereby changing God's written words.

After reading the OP, please explain in your own words how it would argue that the first of these English language "opinions" (often called "translations" rather than "opinions" of men) of the ancient Koine Greek "Scriptures" is unfaithful & misleading and the second is not in its rendering of the Greek word aionion:

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
King James Version (KJV)

And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.
Concordant Literal New Testament (CLV)

Could most modern English translations be in error?

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios)

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Last edited by ClementofA; 09-11-2018 at 12:14 AM..
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