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Old 09-03-2018, 04:28 PM
 
435 posts, read 116,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
I wonder why people (Not Scripture) use the Upper Case letters "A" and "M" when in Scripture it is: I am.
Actually "The parchment manuscripts written in all capitals are called uncials,..."

"Koine Greek originally had an alphabet of only capital letters (uncials),..."
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:52 PM
 
21,808 posts, read 16,674,400 times
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Regarding post #10, you are arguing that the Shepherd of Hermas was written in the first century by the Hermas mentioned in Romans 16:14, and you make an appeal to Origen and other unnamed sources to back up your claim. You made the following statement.
''We know that “Hermas” is listed in Romans 16:14 and was believed by the earliest Christian writers to have been the same “Hermas” who later wrote “The Shepherd of Hermas.” Origen (200-253) believed the author of the Shepherd of Hermas as the one who Paul greeted at the end of his Epistle to the Romans (16:14). Other early Christian sources believed Hermas to have been a contemporary of Clement of Rome, according to (Hermas) vision ii, 4, 3.''
However, the Muratorian fragment (or Canon) which is the earliest extant New Testament canon list that we have (outside of that thing made up by the heretic Marcion) is dated to the mid to late 2nd century AD. The Muritorian Canon mentions 21 of the 27 New Testament books. It also mentions the Shepherd of Hemas and states it to have been written ''very recently in our times.''
4. The Epistle of Jude, indeed,37 and two belonging to the above-named John-or bearing the name of John-are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour. We receive also the Apocalypse of John and that of Peter, though some amongst us will not have this latter read in the Church. The Pastor, moreover, did Hermas write very recently in our times in the city of Rome, while his brother bishop Plus sat in the chair of the Church of Rome. And therefore it also ought to be read; but it cannot be made public38 in the Church to the people, nor placed among the prophets, as their number is complete, nor among the apostles to the end of time. [Bolding mine]

Muratorian Canon (Roberts-Donaldson Translation)
If, as the writer of the Muritorian Canon states, the Shepherd of Hermas was written in his time, which was well after the time of the apostles, then the Hermas mentioned in Romans 16:14 cannot be the Hermas who wrote the Shepherd of Hermas.


Now, you're attempting to argue for Modalism based on the writer of the Shepherd of Hermas apparently confusing the Holy Spirit with Jesus while ignoring the fact that Jesus (the Son) is shown in the Shepherd to not be the Father. If Jesus is not the Father then the argument for Modalism falls apart. And I did post the verses in post #7 where the Shepherd of Hermas makes a distinction between the Father and the Son.


Furthermore, the Bible itself shows that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are distinct.
John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
So John quotes Jesus as saying that He would be glorified by the Holy Spirit. The two passages above clearly show a distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

At the conclusion of 2 Corinthians, Paul distinguishes between Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
2 Cor. 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
So John quotes Jesus as saying that He is distinct from the Holy Spirit, and Paul shows that Jesus is distinct from the Holy Spirit.

You started a thread which you titled - "I care what the Bible...what God says." So the question is, do you or don't you care what the Bible itself says concerning the distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Addendum:

Since Jesus in John 17:5 stated that He was with the Father before the world was, this means that Jesus is not the Father, which also refutes the concept of Modalism. You cannot be the person you are with. While Jesus is God, He is not the Father.

Last edited by Mike555; 09-03-2018 at 08:18 PM..
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Mobile, Al.
3,671 posts, read 1,536,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
Trinitarianism or Modalism?

I was researching 2 Clement & happened upon the following article arguing that early writings such as 1 & 2 Clement, Shepherd of Hermas & the Gospel to the Egyptians support Modalism (also called Sabellianism) & that is why the RCC destroyed copies of the latter & many copies of the others.

See the entire article here & let me know what you think of it:

Introduction to the Epistles of 1 And 2 Clement | Global Impact Ministries | Home
GINOLJC, to all.

in the Introduction according all three translators of 1st. Clement, they have the translation “Grace to you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied”.

that’s the first problem found right off the bat, right at the beginning. When one have a problem from the start then one might as well throw it out the “back” door.

For if the Lord Jesus is a person of God, one person, then Clement opening of salutation destroys their own belief of Oneness at Global impact ministries.

if they are going to use Clement for their oneness belief then Clement own words if translated correctly destroys their doctoral belief of oneness. because if it's "through" Jesus Christ, then one have two, and two is not oneness, unless................. but the fact it's "through", Jesus Christ that ended it for me.


when reading the opening verse of Clement he sound more like a Unitarians than a oneness.

but for benefit of the doubt, I'll read more of these tests. but for now my mind is already made up fro just the opening.

PICYJAG
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,256 posts, read 7,646,560 times
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Just curious if the article in any way indicated why it would be important to me to distinguish?
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:13 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 1 hour ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,762 posts, read 13,399,507 times
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God is whatever the person who believes in it, imagines.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,353 posts, read 12,114,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
Do you consider yourself God, the I AM, a Gnostic, new ager, theosophist, or the like?
No, I am many things...friend, sister, aunt...that's what I meant...still one person.

God can be a son, a father, a mother, a friend, creator, brother and
a million billion things still be the One Spirit...


My input.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,878 posts, read 2,379,078 times
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Default God is 3 Persons or 1 Person of 3 Modes? > Thread TITLE

Sorry, obviously claiming GOD is a person ( or 1 off 3 modes) comes across as a mockery in a sense. Regardless of ANY Religious SECT ( GOD/Diety) I actuallity after over half century have zero validation of reasoning to evem such a guestion. I amy pushing 70.. have taught sunny school/Christian/ BUT also took the time to learn about other religions as described ( Hinduism/Islam) and actually sat thru services of the multitude of Christian Churches ( Catholic/Pentecostal /Baptist/Anglican/etc) but also visited Temples/ Mosques/ Synagogues too.. I listened to their services.. and realized.. Regardless.. They ALL held GOD as their highest power (Diety) .. Sure THEY used various nomenclature to NAME HIM.. BUT that didn't change anything..

It occurred to me.. Higher Power was not JUST Christian .. BUT belongs to ALL mankind.. However, I will confessIdid NOT experience "Buddhism" back then, as NOT so prevalent back half century ago. Point.. since in my lifetime.. ALL religions are based on ONE GOD .. naming HIM doesn't change it!

Then o f course EXTREMISM in certain sects has been bastardizing "Christianity" since I can remember.. ISIL too bastardized ISLAM, YET HIGH level "Politicians " ( in order to provoke FEAR) often paint ALL as part and parcel of ALL Muslims as such HATE FILLED Terrorists!! It's a truly NARROW VIEW of Billions in order to gain "Political Points" That's been a crock and anybody who has a sense of religion would KNOW that.. BUT it appears un-educated or plain OLD HATE types buy into such because it validates how they think... THAT is NOT the NORM.. yet DJT want's promotes it as " MAINSTREAM"!! BS BS!!
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,353 posts, read 12,114,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndarn View Post
It occurred to me.. Higher Power was not JUST Christian ..
BUT belongs to ALL mankind..
Thank you! Breath of fresh air !
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,878 posts, read 2,379,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If all religions are based on one God then why, even in the Bible, are multiple gods referred to? Why for instance is Baal distinguished from Yahweh in the Old Testament? Many religions are polytheistic.
I've read many like yourself who somehow are STUCK on what folks thousands of years ago thought and scribed about.. One would think that humankind would have evolved and LEARNED the lessons of life/experience and NOT just base life choiced thousands of years later on "OLD TESTAMENT" teaching by HUMAN"S who of their time made best writing based of their KNOWLEDGE.. Are you suggesting , Humankind hasNOT evolved and learned with advancement .. NeverMIND the Sacrificial Life of "Jesus".. who by all teaching walked this earth ( labeled by some as False Prophet or DEVIL) and gave up his life ( according to Christian teachings) to allow us lowly human beings to actually ask for forgiveness and possibly gain access to heaven or ability for our souls to move on.. Depending of course how well we've evolved ,"I'm talking souls not body!! "

By harkening back to OLD Testament and questioning my enlightened life path of spiritual education // Kind of reminds me so many preachers who still PREACH "Hell and DAMNATION" from the pulpit !!
BTW~~ That kind of preacher was missing in pretty All my lifetime.. and WHEN did hear it.. rolled eye's ( talking over half century ago) It's only preached to a very small portion who somehow get brainwashed to believe unless 100% abdication to that message ( kind of like OATH of Loyalty) THEN YOU are DOOMED!!

It's not true..and it's nothing more than FEAR Mongering to make those BOW down to their ( human leaders) word .. or Perish!! Human's unfortunately for Free World leaders can't sell that MONTRA any more!!

People who often quote bible versus and old testament/new testament passages.. OFTEN FORGET~~ ALL biblical scribes were HUMAN and certainly could only write THEIR viewpoint/recollection of THAT time. God's Word .. loosely translated by frail sinners of human form thousands of years ago~~ .. certainly NOT GOD!!

The notion to accept a translation from anyone from thousands of years ago who only related their take at teatime.. and be expected to apply it to TO DAY in literal fashion MAKES ZERO Sense ???
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Old 09-03-2018, 09:20 PM
 
20,348 posts, read 9,815,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If all religions are based on one God then why, even in the Bible, are multiple gods referred to? Why for instance is Baal distinguished from Yahweh in the Old Testament? Many religions are polytheistic.
Christianism is Henotheistic in that it accepts the existence or possible existence of other deities, and some of those can be worshiped in lieu of there being ONLY one God. Which is rather ironic - as Hinduism is both monotheistic and henotheistic, never polytheistic in the sense that all gods are created equal?
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