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Old 09-10-2018, 02:58 PM
 
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Hi Finn_Jarber,


God will eventually save everyone. The big question is "Save them from what?". The Bible shows us the purpose for which Jesus came:


1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


The works of the devil is sin. So the purpose that Jesus came was to save us from our sins which lead to death (The wages of sin is death).


Therefore, eternal hell never accomplishes that purpose. The idea of traditional hell is nothing but a relocation plan. Everyone I talk to that believes in it swares that those in it continue to curse God (which is a sin). Therefore, Hell is not an eradication of sin. It is just a relocation plan and unbiblical.


God will ERADICATE sin. It will be nowhere to be found in due time.
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,103 posts, read 34,367,413 times
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Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT.
Like some posters have already pointed out, this is an old topic and your view has been debunked time after time. It would be best to find one of the older threads where people took their time to express their views.
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:57 PM
 
5,147 posts, read 2,535,278 times
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Originally Posted by HeWillCome2040 View Post
God will eventually save everyone. The big question is "Save them from what?". The Bible shows us the purpose for which Jesus came:
Therefore, eternal hell never accomplishes that purpose. The idea of traditional hell is nothing but a relocation plan. Everyone I talk to that believes in it swares that those in it continue to curse God (which is a sin). Therefore, Hell is not an eradication of sin. It is just a relocation plan and unbiblical.
God will ERADICATE sin. It will be nowhere to be found in due time.
I am wondering how God will save everyone since the unforgivable sin is unforgivable - Matthew 12:32 ____________
After all, Jesus' ransom, according to Matthew 20:28, covers MANY and does Not say everyone.

As to save from what ? I find the answer is: Save from death.
There is No ' eternal hell ' because biblical hell comes to a final end when emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell of Revelation 20:13-14.
So, after everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ) then the resurrected dead are saved/ delivered/ rescued from death.
Also, please notice Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 because there is a coming ' time of separation ' to take place here on Earth among the living.
The figurative humble ' sheep'-like people are saved ( delivered/rescued ) through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
They can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the start of calender Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come ! Come and bring the benefits of Rev. 22:2 to Earth for the healing of earth's nations.
Mankind will then see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of Earth's nations.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:51 PM
 
2,316 posts, read 628,806 times
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Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
Even in this life people get 2nd chances. Not only that, but 10th, 100th, 1,000th, etc.

Even - apostates - (1 Tim.1:19-20) were being given another chance:

19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!

Luke 17:4
Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

Love covers a - multitude - of sins.

***Above all***, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

"Mercy triumphs over judgement" - Love Omnipotent (God)

You cannot sin beyond the ability of God's grace to save you:

"where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"

"I tell you, her sins--and they are many--have been forgiven"

If you want to know how much God loves you, look to the incarnation, life, sufferings, and crucifixion of Christ. His love & power for you are greater than the size of the universe:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwmT_Sskaek


************************************************



https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism


You have until your last breath to accept Christ.....that is your state entering eternity......rejection is final...no 2nd chances as you will be set up for the Great White Throne......
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Old 09-10-2018, 07:57 PM
 
435 posts, read 117,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Like some posters have already pointed out, this is an old topic and your view has been debunked time after time. It would be best to find one of the older threads where people took their time to express their views.
It has never been debunked. If it had been, why haven't you or those you refer to done so in this thread or any of the other threads i've posted in recent months? All you guys together have come up with a big fat zero. Here are some related threads (& posts) you guys have never refuted & never will be able to refute:

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek?

Lord Jesus, are there few that be saved?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/52170878-post9.html
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:03 PM
 
435 posts, read 117,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
I am wondering how God will save everyone since the unforgivable sin is unforgivable - Matthew 12:32 ____________


TDNT is one of the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available. It says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

The more literal translations have:

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" (CLV)

29 who but ever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment. (Diaglott)

29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment; (YLT)

29 But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)

Paul speaks of the age to come (Eph.1:21). In the same context he refers to multiple ages to come (Eph.2:7), as do many other Scriptures (e.g. Lk.1:33; Rev.11:15). So a sin that is not pardoned in this age or the coming age does not require it mean it can never be pardoned, or that it cannot be pardoned in an age following the coming age.

For some people who lied to the Holy Spirit they were not pardoned from the penalty of death, which was an immediate physical death (e.g. Acts 5). The fact they were not pardoned from dying immediately did not mean they were to suffer endless punishments.

In this case a person is not pardoned. But it is limited until he die:

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Was the immoral person of 1 Cor.5:4-5 pardoned while in his sin? No, he was given over to Satan for destruction that he might be saved in the day of the Lord.

Was King Nebuchadnezzar pardoned during the 7 years God made him insanely eat grass like an animal. No. Though he wasn't pardoned, he wasn't punished forever, either.

Here we see a sin that won't be pardoned. It won't be pardoned "until" they pardon others:

Mt.6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Similarly, the not being pardoned here is "until" a certain point:

Mt.18:34 In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

If such a horrific thing as eternal punishment were the idea in Mt.12:31-32 & Mk.3:28-29, would Christ have used the ambiguous words aion & aionios? No. He would have used words such as eternal (aidios, Rom.1:20; Jude 6), endless (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4), no end (Lk.1:33), unlimited (apeiron, by Philo). Since He never used such words, He did not teach endless annihilation or torments.

The Spirit blasphemers (Heb.10:28-29) are even worse than a "serial sinner" such as Saul of Tarsus who was persecuting Spirit filled Christians, even unto death.

Even then, all of God's punishments are corrective, not merely pointlessly or sadistically meting out justice for justice's sake, but for the good of all, including the offender.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:06 PM
 
435 posts, read 117,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
After all, Jesus' ransom, according to Matthew 20:28, covers MANY and does Not say everyone.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:08 PM
 
435 posts, read 117,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
As to save from what ? I find the answer is: Save from death.
There is No ' eternal hell ' because biblical hell comes to a final end when emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell of Revelation 20:13-14.
So, after everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ) then the resurrected dead are saved/ delivered/ rescued from death.
Also, please notice Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 because there is a coming ' time of separation ' to take place here on Earth among the living.
The figurative humble ' sheep'-like people are saved ( delivered/rescued ) through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
They can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the start of calender Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come ! Come and bring the benefits of Rev. 22:2 to Earth for the healing of earth's nations.
Mankind will then see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of Earth's nations.


Jn.1:29 says the Lamb will take away the sin of the world. Not let endless death reign over billions as in the endless annihilation endless Hitler-like god viewpoint.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.


---
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:11 PM
 
435 posts, read 117,138 times
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Interesting opinions.....

Here is what the Bible says about the matter.

Hebrews 9:27 New International Version (NIV)- Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Didn't you forget to say, No second chances? Yet Heb.9:27 says no such thing!

Eph.1:10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth 11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

Those in the heavens (Eph.1:10) include spiritually wicked beings:

Eph.6:12 because we are not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against the spiritual hosts of evil in the heavenlies.

So, they, also, will be saved "in Christ" as per Eph.1:10.

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Old 09-10-2018, 08:30 PM
 
20,421 posts, read 9,840,546 times
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Like some posters have already pointed out, this is an old topic and your view has been debunked time after time. It would be best to find one of the older threads where people took their time to express their views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
It has never been debunked. If it had been, why haven't you or those you refer to done so in this thread or any of the other threads i've posted in recent months? All you guys together have come up with a big fat zero. Here are some related threads (& posts) you guys have never refuted & never will be able to refute:

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek?

Lord Jesus, are there few that be saved?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/52170878-post9.html
It has never been debunked, except in the minds of those who cannot see the truth.
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