U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-13-2018, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,293 posts, read 7,677,834 times
Reputation: 1724

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Don't play dumb. I specifically said such behavior is always sinful. I asked you to explain your view, since you argue it is not matter of action, but motivation.

My point is that certain behaviors are ALWAYS sinful.

The original question was: "are certain human behaviors sinful", which the OP says is a core truth in Christianity This is something you (and others) to disagree with, and it looks like my example has you doubting your stance.
And you simply continue to completely miss the point that was being made. It is not the Law or the Rule that makes such behavior wrong, but the fact that it causes actual harm to someone. There are some behaviors that will ALWAYS cause harm, and the motivation to do those either includes the intent to cause harm or the callous disregard for the fact that it WILL do harm. When I point out that it is intent that makes the difference someone always brings up a case where the intent CAN be nothing but harmful in an attempt to avoid the fact that there are laws on the book or on their "lists" about actions that do NOT cause harm and for which the intent is NOT antisocial.

Also included in that objection is the intent to avoid the fact that the exercise of some of those "rules" causes harm in itself even though there is nothing on their lists about the harm done in fulfilling those rules. For example the requirement to stone certain offenders to death.

The specific point most often discussed here is that such harm is NOT demonstrable in same sex attraction, BUT the harm done to youth who identify such feelings by the attitudes expressed to them IS demonstrable.

SO the point I was making is that ALL laws are and should be subject to examination in the light of the intent and consequences of the action regulated and not just accepted because they are on ANY "list."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-13-2018, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,186 posts, read 34,417,667 times
Reputation: 10516
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
And you simply continue to completely miss the point that was being made. It is not the Law or the Rule that makes such behavior wrong, but the fact that it causes actual harm to someone.
It is not the point being made, it is something you reverted to after you saw your original point fall apart.

Play your games with someone else.

Are there behaviors which are sinful?

Yes.....obviously.

Not sure why anyone would even try to argue otherwise, but some people like to argue for the sake of arguing.


Quote:
The specific point most often discussed here is that such harm is NOT demonstrable in same sex attraction
Oh, I see. It's about the gay agenda again. Do you ever think about anything else?

Please discuss with those who never tire of that topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-13-2018, 09:54 AM
 
6,006 posts, read 2,305,110 times
Reputation: 2255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Don't play dumb. I specifically said such behavior is always sinful. I asked you to explain your view, since you argue it is not matter of action, but motivation.

My point is that certain behaviors are ALWAYS sinful.

The original question was: "are certain human behaviors sinful", which the OP says is a core truth in Christianity This is something you (and others) to disagree with, and it looks like my example has you doubting your stance.
Were those Germans who tried to kill Hitler performing a sinful deed? Would you consider everyone who try to assist nate a brutal mass killing dictator as a sinner?

If some who tried to stop Hitler, Stalin or Assad by killing him is not a sinner then it is in fact motivation that is required for it to be a sin. For sexual abuse of a child, no I cannot come up with any reason for that to be anything but wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-13-2018, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,186 posts, read 34,417,667 times
Reputation: 10516
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
Were those Germans who tried to kill Hitler performing a sinful deed? Would you consider everyone who try to assist nate a brutal mass killing dictator as a sinner?

If some who tried to stop Hitler, Stalin or Assad by killing him is not a sinner then it is in fact motivation that is required for it to be a sin. For sexual abuse of a child, no I cannot come up with any reason for that to be anything but wrong.
I think everyone agrees murder and sexual abuse are sinful.

I do not consider taking a life in war or in self defense as murder, so taking down a genocidal tyrant falls in the same category.

Either way, we have concluded that some behaviors are indeed sinful.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-13-2018, 10:14 AM
 
6,006 posts, read 2,305,110 times
Reputation: 2255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I think everyone agrees murder and sexual abuse are sinful.

I do not consider taking a life in war or in self defense as murder, so taking down a genocidal tyrant falls in the same category.

Either way, we have concluded that some behaviors are indeed sinful.
But someone taking down a tyrant of their own country 8s not an a war action nor would it necessarily be in self defense stricktly speaking. I think that we agreed that child sexual abuse is always wrong but no further agreement yet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-13-2018, 10:23 AM
 
10,735 posts, read 2,746,890 times
Reputation: 7243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I think everyone agrees murder and sexual abuse are sinful.

I do not consider taking a life in war or in self defense as murder, so taking down a genocidal tyrant falls in the same category.

Either way, we have concluded that some behaviors are indeed sinful.
As Ive said before, it would depend on if the war is 'just' or not, whether killing is excused or not.

If the US sends military to another country for things like securing oil rights, or to topple an uncooperative govt with the intent to install a more cooperative govt, or protecting poppy fields, I very much doubt the individual soldiers would be justified for killing in wars like that.

Keep in mind, that the reason the US gives for going to war publicly, may not be the real reason, they are most certainly never going to announce to the public they are invading Afghanistan in order to protect the poppy fields, so the war on drugs at home can continue...naturally they would make a more practical/ justifiable reason, like 'threat to US national security or freedom in the US, terrorism, etc'
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-13-2018, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,293 posts, read 7,677,834 times
Reputation: 1724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I think everyone agrees murder and sexual abuse are sinful.

I do not consider taking a life in war or in self defense as murder, so taking down a genocidal tyrant falls in the same category.

Either way, we have concluded that some behaviors are indeed sinful.
Excellent! So the specific ACT under consideration is "killing a human being." The definition of first degree "murder" is killing a human being with malicious intent. The motivation is the defining characteristic and "murder" is ALWAYS wrong, but killing a human being is NOT.

Are you beginning to get the idea?

What is the defining characteristic of "sexual abuse?" Is it not found in the word "abuse?"
1.
the improper use of something.
"alcohol abuse"
synonyms: misuse, misapplication, misemployment; More
2.
cruel and violent treatment of a person or animal. Cruel is defined as "willfully causing pain or suffering to others, or feeling no concern about it."

Once again, intent is the defining characteristic because I'm relatively certain that there are sexual actions that you do NOT consider "abuse."

We have concluded that the element that defines an action as "sinful" is the intent.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-13-2018, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,186 posts, read 34,417,667 times
Reputation: 10516
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
But someone taking down a tyrant of their own country 8s not an a war action nor would it necessarily be in self defense stricktly speaking. I think that we agreed that child sexual abuse is always wrong but no further agreement yet.
It is fine to disagree, and even if you do, agreeing even on one point proves my point.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-13-2018, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,186 posts, read 34,417,667 times
Reputation: 10516
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
As Ive said before, it would depend on if the war is 'just' or not, whether killing is excused or not.

If the US sends military to another country for things like securing oil rights, or to topple an uncooperative govt with the intent to install a more cooperative govt, or protecting poppy fields, I very much doubt the individual soldiers would be justified for killing in wars like that.

Keep in mind, that the reason the US gives for going to war publicly, may not be the real reason, they are most certainly never going to announce to the public they are invading Afghanistan in order to protect the poppy fields, so the war on drugs at home can continue...naturally they would make a more practical/ justifiable reason, like 'threat to US national security or freedom in the US, terrorism, etc'
I am sorry you have an issue with the Unites States, but it has nothing to do with my point. Don't join the military, and your problem is solved. Or you can join and serve as a medic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-13-2018, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,186 posts, read 34,417,667 times
Reputation: 10516
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Excellent! So the specific ACT under consideration is "killing a human being." The definition of first degree "murder" is killing a human being with malicious intent. The motivation is the defining characteristic and "murder" is ALWAYS wrong, but killing a human being is NOT.

Are you beginning to get the idea?

What is the defining characteristic of "sexual abuse?" Is it not found in the word "abuse?"
1.
the improper use of something.
"alcohol abuse"
synonyms: misuse, misapplication, misemployment; More
2.
cruel and violent treatment of a person or animal. Cruel is defined as "willfully causing pain or suffering to others, or feeling no concern about it."

Once again, intent is the defining characteristic because I'm relatively certain that there are sexual actions that you do NOT consider "abuse."

We have concluded that the element that defines an action as "sinful" is the intent.
Don't embarrass yourself with this kind of chicken dance. If you can't admit some behavior is sinful, it would better to say nothing at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top