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Old 09-16-2018, 05:00 PM
 
435 posts, read 116,602 times
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Here's how a Calvinist "proved" that God doesn't love everyone:


Quote:
Three assertions are made, generally, by Christians:

1. God loves everyone.
2. God can save anyone.
3. God's love never ends.

Only two of the above statements can be true at the same time if we assume that there are some who will not be saved (which is to say that we are not universalists). If God loves everyone, and if God can save everyone he loves, and if God does not change his mind about his love, then everyone will be saved. We know that not everyone will be saved, therefore the above logic cannot be entirely true.

If we say that God loves everyone and that he can save anyone, but we reject the third option, then it becomes possible for God's love to fail, perhaps at the moment of death, causing souls to perish. Unfortunately, it means that we who ultimately are saved remain forever in jeopardy of him changing his mind.

If we say that God loves everyone and that his love never ends, but we reject the second option, then it means that God is powerless to save some, who ultimately perish. This denies his omnipotence, and it leaves us with a hand-wringing God who's too ashamed to admit that he can't handle the challenge.

If, however, we say that God's love never fails and has no end, and that he has the full power to save those whom he loves, then we must reject the first option, or else all souls would be saved.

So we're left with a choice from these possibilities:

1. God was lying about Hell, and no one really goes there.
2. God is fickle. Somewhere along the course of eternity he can, and probably eventually will, change his mind and condemn us.
3. God is weak. He can't do a darned thing about saving some of us.
4. God doesn't love everyone.

The Calvinistic choice is number four. You may not like it, but the logical alternatives are much worse. Most likely you thought to assert some other option that wins from every angle, but there is no such option. If you thought to embrace the notion that God loves everyone forever and can save anyone (but doesn't), then you embrace a logical contradiction, and your position has no merit.


But IMO that looks more like a "proof" of universalism.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:13 PM
 
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God didn't lie about hell, that would be man.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:42 PM
 
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Romans 9:13 and at Malachi 1:3 God hated Esau....
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Old 09-16-2018, 06:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
God didn't lie about hell, that would be man.
God created man to lie. Could have made it impossible like breathing underwater, right Jerwade?
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Old 09-16-2018, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
Here's how a Calvinist "proved" that God doesn't love everyone:






But IMO that looks more like a "proof" of universalism.
Well, he hinged his whole argument on the idea that not everyone will be saved, and if everyone is all the conditions listed are true and his argument is knocked into a cocked hat.

Can you say "shot himself in the foot?"
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Old 09-16-2018, 06:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
God created man to lie. Could have made it impossible like breathing underwater, right Jerwade?
A mindless man will jump without a parachute.

Although, Ocean Ramsey doesn't need air tanks.
She can hold her breath for almost six minutes!

And, yes, that's her real name.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInDfIuhMzo
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:17 PM
 
20,372 posts, read 9,822,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
God didn't lie about hell, that would be man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
God created man to lie. Could have made it impossible like breathing underwater, right Jerwade?
I can breath underwater with a little help, but I wouldn't want to be "left behind" in shark infested waters.
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:58 AM
 
435 posts, read 116,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Romans 9:13 and at Malachi 1:3 God hated Esau....
"God so loved the world" (cf. Jn.3:16), therefore God so loved...Esau, the individual.

Although God did hate Esau/Edom the nation:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jacob-Esau-love-hate.html


Jason Pratt said:

"The quick answer is that Paul is quoting one of the prophets talking about how God is going to make Israel instead of Edom the prime nation in the world, even though both nations have been horribly sinful and both nations are going to be destroyed to death. Edom is restored later as prophesied elsewhere, but Israel will be restored first and in authority (and not due to Israelís own righteousness but due to Godís gracious choice.)

"The Jacob/Esau story in Genesis behind this (Edom being the nation descended from Esau), involves Isaac blessing Esau in Jacob even though Jacob will be the inheritor; and Esau and Jacob eventually reconciling with each other in one of the most beautiful and famous stories of the Bible. So Esau isnít hopelessly punished, no moreso than Jacob/Israel is (who acted like a satan to Esau in order to get the inheritance blessing from Isaac).

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalis...ism-has/4148/7
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:38 PM
 
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One of the errors of liberalism is that they choose to get away with crimes .... Where God is a just God , which mean Justice , and people go to heaven through the justice of God , where the people turned their life over to Christ and resist sin , where sin is alien to God .................... So people ignore God then they turn their life over to the devil and the sin of the world by default , as Jesus is the redeemer who cleanse people of sin and the works of the devil .................. See Calvinist believe only the chosen by God will be saved , which is error , because this undermine the authority of Jesus Christ , which take the Lord in vain ................... God loves the people who goes into hell , but cannot do anything for these people because they rejected God`s provision for their protection which is Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ , and without God`s protection then the Holy Angels of God have no choice but to take the souls and spirits of people to the other place which is hell ......................See it is Justice that people go to hell
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:50 PM
 
Location: NSW
2,740 posts, read 1,864,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
A mindless man will jump without a parachute.

Although, Ocean Ramsey doesn't need air tanks.
She can hold her breath for almost six minutes!

And, yes, that's her real name.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInDfIuhMzo
I remember a ICoC member discussing things like this as "folly".
This woman is also "free diving", which has even more risk involved.
The ICoC guy stated he was a surfer and used to take unnecessary risks as well (surfing on reefs), and now as a God-fearing Christian did not. (this group was quite an insular one, renowned for getting new members to fess up a "sin list" , and did not interact outside of their church except for the purpose of recruitment)
This was seen as a terrible sin in his view, in fact formed part of an unforgivable list of sins, as it could result in a type of accidental suicide if you like.
But on the OP, yeah I am aware of the Calvinist viewpoint.
You only have to interact with members of CARM and others, to know the exclusivity and elitism involved with these individuals.

Last edited by Derek41; 09-17-2018 at 04:06 PM..
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