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Old 09-26-2018, 10:12 AM
 
Location: central Florida
981 posts, read 355,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c View Post
thanks Choir Loft, but is it not in the book of Act where it is recorded that the Church was being "ADDED" to?, but was it not the Holy Spirit given in the Gospels? let's check the record, John 20:21 "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

John 20:22 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

John 20:23 "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained".

PICYJAG.
Context

Context is a tool we use to interpret the Bible, which is by way of saying the Bible is self-interpreting.

- The context of John 20 is a chronicle of encounters of Jesus by those who knew Him shortly after He had risen from the tomb.

- The purpose/context of the entire Gospel of John is revealed at the end of the chapter by John, "[31] But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

There is nothing here written about the church or about adding anything. It's about believing and the consequences of faith in Jesus. Don't complicate the simple and extrapolate the obvious. It will only result in confusion and error. Appropriate Biblical interpretation requires taking baby steps, one at a time.

Chapter 20 is traditionally divided into several sections that deal with the resurrection of Jesus. The third section, verses 19 - 23, describe the transfer of spiritual authority from Jesus to His disciples SO AS to accomplish the task of transmitting the gospel message to the wider world.

Transfer or Grant of Authority

The transfer of divine authority SO AS to perform a divinely ordained task is called anointing. For instance, Jesus' title of messiah (or mashiach in Hebrew) may be translated as "anointed one".

Annointing is a spiritual act of God and is usually accompanied by a brief ceremony where oil is poured or placed upon the recipient's head or brow. Following the application of oil and a few spoken words, the Holy Spirit provides evidence of its participation by some form of visible act. Application of oil in the Bible or issuance of a certificate/license today implies a grant of authority. God bears witness to divine anointing by some act of the Holy Spirit. Humans bear witness to human authority by signing their names on the certificate as witness. John 20:19-23 is about anointing or licensing of disciples to the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Biblical precedent for acts of anointing SO AS to perform a task or ministry is chronicled throughout the Bible. For example, in 1 Samuel 10 Saul is anointed first king of ancient Israel. The prophet Samuel placed oil on Saul's head. Later in the chapter the Holy Spirit descended upon Saul and caused a visible physical reaction.

Returning to John 20:19-23 we see a written record of Jesus' words and actions to anoint/license His disciples. Why does He anoint His disciples? Jesus explains when He says, "as the Father sent me, I am sending you". Jesus speaks words physically and anoints spiritually thus signifying a transfer of authority SO AS to send the disciples out into the world.

Strict Interpretation
It is important to not insinuate things into the Bible that it doesn't say, except where an external reference is implied in a hypothetical example, poetry, prophecy or internal reference to past scripture. There is no reference implication or hypothetical assertion being made in John 20:19-23 regarding the church or its expansion. All of that comes later in the Book of Acts.

Do not add to scripture or take away from it. A good rule of thumb is to assume the Bible says what it means and means what it says.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Last edited by Choir Loft; 09-26-2018 at 10:33 AM..
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:34 AM
 
21,812 posts, read 16,674,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
GENERAL JESUS
The reference to Jesus as Son of David was a testimonial record as are all the gospels. Jesus DID NOT exercise the office of Son of David. He was mistakenly taken for an insurrectionist by the general population who were looking for a leader against Roman occupation. Historic accounts of the era serve well to instruct the curious reader.

The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time mistook the Son of Man for a rebel. Proof is shown during his trial before the Roman governor. When the crowd demanded Barrabus to be released they gave outright proof they wanted a rebel murderer to lead them instead of the Prince of Peace. This is a clue as to why Jews don't generally acknowledge Jesus as Son of God to this day. Please read historic accounts of the era.

SON OF DAVID
Jesus exercised the office of Son of Jacob rather than Son of David. If the reader doesn't know who Jacob was or understand my reference have a look at the passage in Genesis 28, then compare it to John 1:50-51.

Jesus is prophetically declared by the Bible to appear in the world twice.

The first time He came as the suffering servant. The second time He shall come as judge and conqueror. The first time He came as the Son of Jacob. The second time He shall come as Son of David. Jews fail to see the separation (neither do they read Isaiah 53).

ANCESTRY
Jewish ancestry is not tracked through the father's line. It's tracked through the mother's lineage. Ask any rabbi or explore a Jewish web site. Therefore Jesus' ancestral line is through the house of David, though He was literally not David's son but God's son. The difference may appear to be subtle but it is important nonetheless.

PRIEST
Jesus was NOT related to the tribe of Levy (for a reason).

He was NOT a Levite and could not be a priest according to the old Law. Jesus is High priest according to the order of Melchizedek (read Hebrews 5, Genesis 14 & Ps 110). The implications of the book of Hebrews states that Jesus' priesthood supersedes and is superior to that of the tradition of Aaronic temple priests.

The book of Hebrews says its better because it's based upon the innocent blood of God as sacrifice for sin, because Jesus is now appointed as High Priest (an office which He holds at this time) and because He represents/fulfills the New Law/New Covenant.

Sunday school question;
Since the old Law has NOT passed away (Matt 5:17), what then is the substance of the New Law/New Covenant?
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. What does this mean and how does it apply to us?


that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
You are confusing the term 'office' (and inventing one in the process; there is no office of Jacob.) with the term 'sonship'.

There are three offices ascribed to Jesus. They are;

Prophet (Matt. 21:11; Luke 7:16; Mark 6:4; John 4:19)

Priest [Jesus is our great High Priest] (Hebrews 4:14, 10:19-23)

King (Luke 1:32-33) Jesus will sit on the throne of David and reign as King in the Millennial kingdom.


There are four 'sonship' titles ascribed to Jesus in which he is referred to as 'the Son/son of.' Those four sonship titles are:

Son of God (Luke 1:35) / Son of the Most High (Luke 1:32) 'Most High' is another way of referring to God

Son of Man (Matthew 8:20)

Son of Abraham (Matthew 1:1)

Son of David (Matthew 1:1)

The title 'son of David' is a Messianic title that emphasizes the Davidic descent of Jesus and his relationship qualification in the royal line of David. Jesus was literally David's descendant (son) through his mother Mary.
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:11 AM
 
Location: central Florida
981 posts, read 355,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I'm Episcopalian. We follow the traditional lectionary in our services. OT reading, Psalm in unison, NT/epistle reading, Gospel reading, Year A, B, C cycle.

Priest's job is to find a theme and tie them together. Sometimes it's easier to do than others. Some are better at it than others. Overarching rule is that Jesus said to love one another, and that takes priority over anything else because that's the only real sermon there is.

Just FYI.
The problem with the Episcopal lectionary is that it's extremely limited. The same readings of gospel and epistles are repeated throughout the year. Exceptions are religious holidays and special occasions such as weddings funerals ordination etc.

Congregants of the Episcopal church are not exposed to the wider implications of the Bible. If they want to know about scripture they have to study on their own. Only in rare circumstances is appropriate Biblical guidance provided; definitely not to the kids and certainly not to adults. This situation is not specific to the Episcopal church alone as most of the rest of Protestantism is infected with this lackadaisical attitude about studying Holy Writ.

An Episcopal priest generally prepares a homily, a short commentary of a scripture reading, that is usually fifteen minutes in length. [When I was invited to speak I was told to keep it strictly under fifteen minutes.]

There are two types of sermon: topical and scriptural.

A topical sermon is an address that can be about any subject and may or may not use Biblical references to illustrate its point. The speaker may present his topic from a prepared or memorized outline.

A scriptural sermon is an exegetical explanation of scripture, line by line. The scripture itself is the outline for the sermon.

Episcopal priests and bishops generally deliver a topical sermon that doesn't necessarily coincide with the music or the required recitation of gospel and epistle passages for the day.

It is true that a message of an official of the Episcopal church may be the second commandment (except when financial matters are addressed and then its the job of a vestry member to deliver the bad news).

BUT it should be noted here that the priority of any Episcopal message IS TO AVOID THE BIBLICAL ASSERTION THAT ONE MUST BE SAVED in the name of Jesus Christ. (Romans 10:9) (*)

It is forbidden to any Episcopal priest or bishop to say or imply that salvation in the name of Jesus is required to enter the kingdom of God.

I know this to be true from bitter personal experience. As a seminary student working toward ordination as priest in the Episcopal church, I was informed that I had to recant my faith in Jesus and to deny the testimony of scripture which says one must be saved in Jesus' name if I had any aspirations for the ministry. "It's just a job," I was told. I completed my academic work for a Master's Degree in theology and left seminary and the church.

Episcopalians are unaware of this requirement of the inner circle and often deny its ugly implications, but it is true nonetheless.

Later in life I discovered that even my academic records had been expunged by the church. To be fair, the seminary had failed financially and been converted to a business school. Apparently there isn't as much interest in religious studies as there once was. The institution no longer has any record of my attendance or successful studies. I have copies of my scholastic transcripts, but as any student knows only an official sealed transcript issued by an academic institution is considered valid proof.

Years later I also discovered a coverup by Episcopal priests and the bishop of my diocese of sexual aberrations thrust upon children by former officials. You don't read about that sort of thing in the Episcopal church in the newspapers, but it has happened.

The Episcopal church is a dark denomination with many skeletons in its closet. Those that suffer most from its cover ups sit in its pews every Sunday. God weeps for them even as their spiritual leaders place one hand on their Bibles and slide the other hand into their pockets.

Somebody is going to accuse me of lying.

I really don't care because it happened and God is my witness. I will end this by saying that I haven't gone back to the Episcopal church again except on the occasion of two funerals. The experience has left deep scars on me and my immediate family (my wife was at my side the entire time and can attest to many other things as well).

My purpose here is to bear witness of the sexual excesses of the Episcopal church and its demonic denial of the necessity of salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. Communion will not save and neither will the splash of baptism on a child's forehead. The liturgy isn't sufficient to save either. You can boast perfect attendance at mass and it won't buy any currency in heaven. You may still be liable to the Second Death (they don't mention that either).

Salvation is a bone deep commitment to Jesus Christ and no other. For that reason alone I could not continue in fellowship with the Episcopal church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) When was the last time the reader witnessed an alter call at an Episcopal church (believe in Jesus and be saved) or a call to repentance? Believe it or not I've seen both at a Jewish synagogue, but NEVER at an Episcopal church. Life is strange. Go figure.

Last edited by Choir Loft; 09-26-2018 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,004 posts, read 54,508,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
The problem with the Episcopal lectionary is that it's extremely limited. The same readings of gospel and epistles are repeated throughout the year. Exceptions are religious holidays and special occasions such as weddings funerals ordination etc.

Congregants of the Episcopal church are not exposed to the wider implications of the Bible. If they want to know about scripture they have to study on their own.
So...what exactly do you say the participants are doing at the church bible study.

There is also EFM, with which you must be familiar, the four-year theological study course designed for the laity by Sewanee. Year one is the OT, Year two the NT. It's a pretty in-depth study of The Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
Only in rare circumstances is appropriate Biblical guidance provided; definitely not to the kids and certainly not to adults. This situation is not specific to the Episcopal church alone as most of the rest of Protestantism is infected with this lackadaisical attitude about studying Holy Writ.
I don't think that's accurate. I grew up in the RCA. I won a collapsible pen in third grade Sunday School for being the first to learn to recite all 66 books of the Bible in order, which comes in very handy if one needs to do a quick lookup. But we were taught the Bible stories from infancy, learned our memory verses, and then had to go through the whole Bible before "joining the Church" in seventh grade.

Most of the fundamentalists I know, particularly Baptists and the ones who attend those happy-clappy type churches like "The Vineyard" attend regular Bible studies. They are under the Protestant umbrella, no?

Christians should be familiar with the Bible, IMO. The danger comes when the Bible is given more importance and authority than the work of men should warrant.

<Snipped for brevity and because I am not in a position, nor do I have the desire, to defend the overall Episcopal Church as an organization against your experiences and perceptions. I belong to one Christian community, which happens to be an Episcopal parish. We function despite the corporate hierarchy.

But, for the record, I would not affiliate myself with a church where the fundamentalist interpretation of REPENT AND BE SAVED! is the base on which all else is built.>
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Old 09-27-2018, 06:01 AM
 
Location: central Florida
981 posts, read 355,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
So...what exactly do you say the participants are doing at the church bible study.

There is also EFM, with which you must be familiar, the four-year theological study course designed for the laity by Sewanee. Year one is the OT, Year two the NT. It's a pretty in-depth study of The Bible.



I don't think that's accurate. I grew up in the RCA. I won a collapsible pen in third grade Sunday School for being the first to learn to recite all 66 books of the Bible in order, which comes in very handy if one needs to do a quick lookup. But we were taught the Bible stories from infancy, learned our memory verses, and then had to go through the whole Bible before "joining the Church" in seventh grade.

Most of the fundamentalists I know, particularly Baptists and the ones who attend those happy-clappy type churches like "The Vineyard" attend regular Bible studies. They are under the Protestant umbrella, no?

Christians should be familiar with the Bible, IMO. The danger comes when the Bible is given more importance and authority than the work of men should warrant.

<Snipped for brevity and because I am not in a position, nor do I have the desire, to defend the overall Episcopal Church as an organization against your experiences and perceptions. I belong to one Christian community, which happens to be an Episcopal parish. We function despite the corporate hierarchy.

But, for the record, I would not affiliate myself with a church where the fundamentalist interpretation of REPENT AND BE SAVED! is the base on which all else is built.>
I stand by my statement that most churches are Biblically illiterate and many leaders lack knowledge of Biblical content and context.

I know because I've attended quite a few. Adult Bible classes are offered, but the content is middle school level at best. Attendees are NOT exposed to Biblical themes but instead are fed buzz words and religious slogans.(*) Children are made busy with coloring books and pre-school activities that mean nothing except to keep them busy while adults are occupied elsewhere (usually at the coffee shop out in the foyer). Proof may be gleaned from the pages of any 'Christian' discussion forum. The buzz words and slogans are everywhere - meaningless undocumented rubbish. Christians don't think any more. They just regurgitate slogans because that's what they've been taught to do. They've been taught wrong and THAT is my primary argument here today.

High school students ought to be prepared for the assault upon their faith when they graduate. Instead they too are directed toward empty time consuming nonsense. For instance, I spoke to a high school youth minister who stood next to a couple students. I asked him if he'd been training his students and he complained there wasn't enough time. So....I asked him what he knew about Pastafarianism. He'd never heard of it, but the students had heard of it. Have you? Ignorance is not bliss. The situation is unacceptable.

Arguments arise among Christians because of lack of knowledge. Subjective opinion and bias fills in the gaps of logic and truth. The result is inconsistent ideology and pointless debate.

A good friend of mine is a former Roman Catholic nun. One of the things that drove her away from the church was the unwritten policy that congregations should be urged to venerate the Bible but NEVER to read it. "The Bible is not their playground," she was told.

Episcopal priests are NOT exposed to general Biblical knowledge in seminary. I know because I studied there. Their exposure is only to theologians and history that justifies and details Episcopal ideology only. They know very little about the overall context of the Bible. As a result they don't teach error as much as avoid the Bible altogether.

I worked at a local college until I retired last year. In the college coffee shop I met four Muslim students and asked them to clarify a passage I'd been reading in the Qur'an. They couldn't answer my question. Instead they advised me, "don't read the Qur'an. It's too confusing." Ignorance permeates every religion. Knowledge is power and those that do not avail themselves of it live in darkness bias hate and myth.

I'm glad you memorized the ordering of the books of the Protestant Bible. Pick up a Jewish Bible and you'll discover that the sequence of books are all different. Pick up a Catholic Bible and you'll discover that its not quite the same as a Protestant Bible either. Pick up a cell phone app and let the app do the searching for you.

You state you "would not attend a fundamentalist interpretation of repent and be saved". THIS is a primary example of Biblical ignorance. You merge your anti-fundamentalist bias into Biblical ignorance and come up lacking at all points.

The ENTIRE BIBLE speaks of one's relationship with God. It begins with humble repentance.

God does not hear any sinner's prayer except the prayer of sincere repentance. (Psalm 51)

Any relationship with God MUST begin with repentance. No one is saved without it. From the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation the theme is consistent. In point of fact, human hubris is the primary reason for divine judgment and destruction upon the earth. (Proverbs 16:18)

A human relationship with God grows with constant and continuous surrender to His will in the name of Jesus Christ. It's called faith. There is no other name given whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

If your church has persuaded you that another path to salvation exists, they are teaching lies and a false gospel. If you refuse to repent before God you shall not see the kingdom of heaven. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

LOOK IT UP.
Read your Bible.
Study to show yourself approved. (2 Timothy 2:15)
Just because Fundamentalists believe it - doesn't mean it's wrong.
Just because you reject it doesn't mean you're correct.
STUDY.
READ.

You can't rest on the work you began in third grade! You must study and learn all your life. The fact that you insist repentance isn't the way is anti-Biblical and a good indication your level of pride has brought you close to spiritual bankruptcy.

Please, in the name of mercy and heaven - repent.
The days are increasingly evil and the time is short to make peace with God.

Church membership cards are not fire proof
- if you catch my meaning.

Since when is humility a bad thing?

When right is said to be wrong and when human values supersede God's Law - judgment is not far away.

NOW is the time to repent and make peace with God. (Mark 1:15)
Ceremony and tradition holds no value in the kingdom of heaven. (Romans 2:11)
Repentance unto Jesus Christ saves. (John 3:16)

If you think all this is a meaningless rant then I suggest you cancel your church membership save your money and go elsewhere. You're wasting your time.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Does the reader know how to perform a word study? What is an exegetical examination of a Biblical teaching? What is a hermeneutic and how does it clarify or confuse Biblical doctrine? These are ADULT matters not taught in middle school level classes.

Last edited by Choir Loft; 09-27-2018 at 06:30 AM..
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Old 10-03-2018, 07:06 PM
 
2,304 posts, read 623,989 times
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Originally Posted by 101c View Post
Not saying that you're right or wrong, but Genesis 6:8 states, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD".

and Grace is unmerited favor, which is the Hebrew word, H2580 חֵן chen (chane) n-m.
1. graciousness.
2. (subjective) kindness, favor.
3. (objective) beauty.
[from H2603]
KJV: favour, grace(-ious), pleasant, precious, (well-)favoured.
Root(s): H2603

and in Abraham, who is the Father of all Nations, he gain God favor by "FAITH".
Romans 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

for are we not all saved by Faith/Hope? Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it".

and HOPE is what? .... "FAITH", scripture, Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

and GRACE is stored upon all of us by the work of Christ on the Cross. for all men sin was removed, it's our Faith/hope in Christ that saves us.

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

Grace has been in effect from the beginning, before the Law, but they had to access this GRACE by FAITH, meaning they DIED in HOPE/FAITH of it. because Abraham got the promise when he was still uncircumcised, and died in hope/Faith. Romans 4:11 "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Romans 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Romans 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:14 "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect"


PICYJAG.

My point remains that GRACE was not officially taught from Genesis-til the cross. When Moses was given the law it was FAITH + WORKS......because sin had not been cleared off the table yet. The gospel of grace was also NOt in effect during Jesus earthly ministry. The GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM was in effect and people were saved who knew Jesus was the son of God and this applied to the disciples.

Mat_4:23 And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.

Mat_9:35 And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction.

Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Mar_1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Truly He was the Son of God and He knew HE was going to bring in grace through Paul and the Gentiles....but you can see the emphasis on the Son of God in many verses.........

Mat_8:29 And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"

Mat_14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Mat_26:63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

Mat_27:40 and saying, "You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross."

Mat_27:43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

Mat_27:54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Mar_1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

GRACE we see AFTER THE PERFECT COMPLETED WORK ON THE CROSS......sin was taken out, the Spirit could come to live in us FOREVER since the wages of sin is DEATH...........

Romans 11:5-6
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Galatians 5:4
Verse Concepts
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Romans 5:20-21
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:14
Verse Concepts
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 8:1-4
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, read more.

Galatians 2:21
Verse Concepts
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
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