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Old 09-27-2018, 07:51 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-Making America Great Again" (set 6 hours ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
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Specifically verses 28-31 below.

Luke 23

The Crucifixion of Jesus

26 As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” 31 “For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”
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Old 09-27-2018, 08:26 PM
 
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This "outsider" represented the FIRST person to take up his cross and truly follow Jesus. Whereas the people of Jerusalem would soon be under judgement. If you don't understand that the story is completely fictional then you will never get the true meaning.
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Specifically verses 28-31 below.

Luke 23

The Crucifixion of Jesus

26 As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” 31 “For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”


IMHO, think it's reasonable to assume that Jesus is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in 70 a.d. which would end up with many of the Jews in the Holy Land being exiled from their own country (the Diaspora).


here's what Jesus says on the future destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 19: 43-44: "for the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. they will level you to the ground---you and children within your walls. they will not leave one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God."


in the peace of Christ.
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:28 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-Making America Great Again" (set 6 hours ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
IMHO, think it's reasonable to assume that Jesus is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in 70 a.d. which would end up with many of the Jews in the Holy Land being exiled from their own country (the Diaspora).


here's what Jesus says on the future destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 19: 43-44: "for the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. they will level you to the ground---you and children within your walls. they will not leave one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God."


in the peace of Christ.
Thank you, George. Could this not also be referring to the Great Tribulation spoken of in Rev. 13-19?
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Thank you, George. Could this not also be referring to the Great Tribulation spoken of in Rev. 13-19?

possibly like many passages in Scripture and sayings of Jesus it can be interpreted in several different ways and BOTH meanings (including describing the events preceding the Second Coming and the restoration of the "new Jerusalem" and the eternal Kingdom of God described in Revelations) are likely correct. that said, and especially in light of the quote from Luke the "immediate" and "short term" meaning for the people of that time was probably indeed about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the exile of it's people as punishment of the city and it's inhabitants for rejecting His teachings and killing Him ("Jerusalem, Jerusalem killer of prophets and who stones those sent to her how often I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings---AND YOU WOULD NOT". see your house is left desolate..." (Luke 13:34-35).


for a devout Jew the destruction of Jerusalem and the desecration of the Temple by the pagan Romans (the "abomination of the desolation") and their own exile from their native land (the "chosen people" evicted from the "chosen land") would be a horrific and cataclysmic thing almost beyond imagining in both nationalistic and religious terms.




in the peace of Christ who despite our own rejection of Him through pride and arrogance still extends His love and mercy to us---IF we turn to Him with humility and sincerity and to our neighbor with that same love and mercy He wishes to give to us.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 09-27-2018 at 10:43 PM..
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:52 PM
 
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The one part that you CAN take literally are the people of that generation and their children, which is one generation later. The so-called "end of the world" would be visited within 40 years of the time of Jesus.

You have to be deliberately blinding yourself not to see what is so clearly spelled out in this story. It's really not difficult to understand.

The "Heavens and the Earth" were a name given to the 2nd temple, which literally passed away 40 years later. I've heard somewhere that the phrase was etched into the stone floor of the temple.
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Old 09-27-2018, 10:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Specifically verses 28-31 below.

Luke 23

The Crucifixion of Jesus

26 As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” 31 “For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

Jesus had been so physically weakened by the scourging he had received that he had great difficulty carrying the cross beam. So the Roman soldiers forced a by stander, Simon from Cyrene to carry it.

What Jesus told the women pertained to the judgment that was about to come on Jerusalem as a result of the Jews rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. The Jewish wars began in AD 66 which eventually led to both the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in AD 70. During the siege of Jerusalem it was hell inside of the city, made so largely by the Jewish zealots who refused to surrender and killed any of their fellow Jews who spoke of surrender.


Josephus writes,

3. Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious, and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable; for if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did anywhere appear, a war was commenced presently, and the dearest friends fell a-fighting one with another about it, snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food; but the robbers would search them when they were expiring, lest any one should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying; nay, these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along like mad dogs, and reeling against the doors of the houses like drunken men; they would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same house two or three times in one and the same day. Moreover, their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew to chew everything, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch, and endured to eat them; nor did they at length abstain from girdles and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed; the very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attic, [drachmae,] But why should I describe the shameless impudence that the famine brought on men in their eating inanimate things, while I am going to relate a matter of fact, the like to which no history relates, either among the Greeks or Barbarians! It is horrible to speak of it, and incredible when heard. I had indeed willingly omitted this calamity of ours, that I might not seem to deliver what is so portentous to posterity, but that I have innumerable witnesses to it in my own age; and besides, my country would have had little reason to thank me for suppressing the miseries that she underwent at this time.

4. Now there was a certain woman that dwelt beyond the Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezub, which signifies the House of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time. The other effects of this woman had been already seized upon; such I mean as she had brought with her out of Perea, and removed to the city. What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, has also been carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into here house for that purpose. This put the poor woman into a very great passion, and by the frequent reproaches and imprecation she cast at these rapacious villains, she had provoked them to anger against her; but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against herself, or out of the commiseration of her case, would take away her life; and if she found any food, she perceived her labours were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself; nor did she consult with anything but with her passion and the necessity she was in. She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves! This famine also will destroy us; yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets and a bye-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews. As soon as she had said this, she slew her son; and then roasted him, and ate the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. . . [Bolding mine]

Wars of the Jews, book VI, sections 3-4

There's more to that story, but you get the idea. What befell Jerusalem was the result of rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. This is what Jesus was referring to in that passage. He might also have been looking further out to the Tribulation as well which is still future to our time, but most immediately he was referring to Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70.

Last edited by Mike555; 09-27-2018 at 11:15 PM..
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Old 09-27-2018, 11:20 PM
 
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Mike, thanks for (as always) a thorough exposition/exegesis of the passage (with added detail from Josephus about just how horrible things were for the besieged Jews) which IMHO seems to generally agree with the gist of my earlier posts on the subject---it refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and this is to be regarded as Divine punishment for the rejection by "the Jews" (but obviously not all of them) of their promised Messiah.


in the peace of Christ.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 09-27-2018 at 11:46 PM..
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:49 AM
Status: "Trump 2020-Making America Great Again" (set 6 hours ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
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Thanks, Mike. I was hoping you’d chime in.
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:53 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Specifically verses 28-31 below.

Luke 23

The Crucifixion of Jesus

26 As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” 31 “For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”
I believe it means NAZARENE LIVES MATTER....
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