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Old 09-29-2018, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Mobile, Al.
3,671 posts, read 1,538,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeWillCome2040 View Post
Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
True, Acts 2:25 "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Acts 2:26 "Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Acts 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:28 "Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:30 "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne".

PICYJAG.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:21 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,810 posts, read 13,413,199 times
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The Resurrection of the Dead


There's too many zombie shows already. TV is saturated. Ditto with the vampires and werewolves. They are all so last-Tuesday!

How about something novel about those humans who are evolving into something positive? Like underprivileged children given a hand up who become greater than their parents' dreams?

Or Christian fundies who realize - after a dump truck of realization falls on their heads - that love and caring trumps obeying archaic, primitive, patriarchal rules written by long-dead men who had no idea they would later be credited with channeling a god(s).
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:15 PM
 
21,845 posts, read 16,687,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c View Post
ok, but you say, "At the point of physical death the soul and spirit leave the body and enter into the presence of God". ok if that is true, please explain these scriptures,

2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Listen real good to this next verse.
2 Corinthians 5:2 "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

If our new home is coming from heaven, that means Im not in heaven ... yet. Im in another location other than heaven.

Let me make it clear. If Im waiting for a postal box FROM the post office, that means Im not at the Post office. Im in a difference Location from the Post Office, can you agree? So, If Im waiting for a house FROM heaven to be clothed with, then Im not in heaven, would you agree.

Read those verses again, especially verse #2. Thanks in advance.

PICYJAG.
First of all, you are ignoring the Biblical references that you've already been provided which clearly show that the soul and spirit of the believer go to heaven at the point of physical death. This means I'm simply wasting my time bothering with this.

I don't intend to drag this out. I'll address 2 Corinthians and that's going to be the end of my participation with this. I'll simply quote the commentary from the Bible Knowledge Commentary. The commentary on 2 Corinthians was done by David K. Lowery.
5:2-4 Paul had written about fixing his eyes ''not on what is seen but on what is unseen'' (4:18). These verses express the same sentiment. Paul's present life was ''wasting away'' (4:16) and he faced ''death'' (4:11-12). Using a figure of speech (metonymy of the effect [groaning] substituted for the cause [suffering]), Paul twice said we groan (5:2, 4; cf. Rom. 8:22-23). But someday, when our heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2, 4) is received , all such groaning and being burdened will give place to laughter and exultation (cf. Luke 6:21; 1 Cor. 15:51-55). What is mortal will be swallowed up by life in immortal, imperishable spiritual bodies in heaven (Phil. 3:21). For Paul his present mortal life was like nakedness, marked by humiliation and privation. Who would want to focus on this abject state in view of the eternal glory that awaited him? (2 Cor. 4:17-18)

A number of commentators and theologians have seen in these verses reference to an ''intermediate state,'' a period between death and resurrection. This view takes one of two forms: (a) Dead (though conscious) believers are without a body while awaiting their resurrection bodies, or (b) dead (though conscious) believers receive an ''intermediate body'' that somehow differs from their forthcoming resurrected bodies. (According to either of these intermediate-state views, Paul was suggesting that he hoped to live till the return of Christ so that he would not experience an ''intermediate state.'') These views, however, seem unwarranted. Paul had only two conditions in view since 4:16, the temporal and the eternal. The introduction of a third is therefore unlikely. It seems clear from 5:4 that being in this tent (cf. 2 Peter 1:13), and unclothed describe mortality while being clothed and possessing a heavenly dwelling depict immortality, without specifying any intervening stages.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, pp. 565-566
Lowery isn't denying an intermediate state between death and resurrection, but in his view Paul did not have the intermediate state in mind at this particular point (verses 1-2).

While awaiting the resurrection body, while awaiting the eternal state, the believer is in heaven as has been clearly shown by Biblical passages already provided. And do you actually think that Paul is contradicting himself. He stated straight out that he preferred to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). That's a part of the very same passage and context of 2 Cor. 5:1-2.

'Absent from the body.' That means not physically alive. And yet, 'at home with the Lord.' Then in Philippians 1:23-24 Paul states that he is torn between the desire to depart and be with Christ or to remain in the flesh for the sake of those to whom he is writing.

Now can that possibly be any clearer? Paul distinguishes between being in the flesh and departing to be with Christ for that is very much better. Put Philippians 1:23-24 with 2 Corinthians 5:8.
2 Corinthians 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. To depart from the flesh is to be at home with the Lord.

Paul couldn't be any clearer than that.

And that's all the time I'm spending on this. If you can't accept what Paul said, and if you can't accept the fact that Revelation plainly speaks of martyred believers in heaven prior to being resurrected, then you'll just have to go on disagreeing.
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:29 PM
 
20,389 posts, read 9,825,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The soul isn't anywhere before it is created, and no one knows when the soul of a person is first created. There are various views concerning that subject.
What are some of the views? Because the soul is not immortal.
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:57 PM
 
21,845 posts, read 16,687,197 times
Reputation: 8661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

The soul isn't anywhere before it is created, and no one knows when the soul of a person is first created. There are various views concerning that subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
What are some of the views? Because the soul is not immortal.
The historical views are primarily Traducianism, which views the soul as being propagated as a result of human generation. In other words, this view holds that both the physical body and the immortal, immaterial soul are genetic products of procreation.

And creationism which holds that God immediately creates the soul and joins it with the body either at the point of birth or at some point prior to birth whlle the fetus is still in the womb. And others believe that ensoulment takes place at conception.

I've already provided the Biblical passages which show that the soul does not cease to exist at the point of physical death and I'm not going to repeat them, or myself. People will just have to read my prior posts. And those who persist in denying what those passages say can just go right on denying them. It doesn't change what they say.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Mobile, Al.
3,671 posts, read 1,538,062 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
First of all, you are ignoring the Biblical references that you've already been provided which clearly show that the soul and spirit of the believer go to heaven at the point of physical death. This means I'm simply wasting my time bothering with this.

I don't intend to drag this out. I'll address 2 Corinthians and that's going to be the end of my participation with this. I'll simply quote the commentary from the Bible Knowledge Commentary. The commentary on 2 Corinthians was done by David K. Lowery.
5:2-4 Paul had written about fixing his eyes ''not on what is seen but on what is unseen'' (4:18). These verses express the same sentiment. Paul's present life was ''wasting away'' (4:16) and he faced ''death'' (4:11-12). Using a figure of speech (metonymy of the effect [groaning] substituted for the cause [suffering]), Paul twice said we groan (5:2, 4; cf. Rom. 8:22-23). But someday, when our heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2, 4) is received , all such groaning and being burdened will give place to laughter and exultation (cf. Luke 6:21; 1 Cor. 15:51-55). What is mortal will be swallowed up by life in immortal, imperishable spiritual bodies in heaven (Phil. 3:21). For Paul his present mortal life was like nakedness, marked by humiliation and privation. Who would want to focus on this abject state in view of the eternal glory that awaited him? (2 Cor. 4:17-18)

A number of commentators and theologians have seen in these verses reference to an ''intermediate state,'' a period between death and resurrection. This view takes one of two forms: (a) Dead (though conscious) believers are without a body while awaiting their resurrection bodies, or (b) dead (though conscious) believers receive an ''intermediate body'' that somehow differs from their forthcoming resurrected bodies. (According to either of these intermediate-state views, Paul was suggesting that he hoped to live till the return of Christ so that he would not experience an ''intermediate state.'') These views, however, seem unwarranted. Paul had only two conditions in view since 4:16, the temporal and the eternal. The introduction of a third is therefore unlikely. It seems clear from 5:4 that being in this tent (cf. 2 Peter 1:13), and unclothed describe mortality while being clothed and possessing a heavenly dwelling depict immortality, without specifying any intervening stages.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, pp. 565-566
Lowery isn't denying an intermediate state between death and resurrection, but in his view Paul did not have the intermediate state in mind at this particular point (verses 1-2).

While awaiting the resurrection body, while awaiting the eternal state, the believer is in heaven as has been clearly shown by Biblical passages already provided. And do you actually think that Paul is contradicting himself. He stated straight out that he preferred to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). That's a part of the very same passage and context of 2 Cor. 5:1-2.

'Absent from the body.' That means not physically alive. And yet, 'at home with the Lord.' Then in Philippians 1:23-24 Paul states that he is torn between the desire to depart and be with Christ or to remain in the flesh for the sake of those to whom he is writing.

Now can that possibly be any clearer? Paul distinguishes between being in the flesh and departing to be with Christ for that is very much better. Put Philippians 1:23-24 with 2 Corinthians 5:8.
2 Corinthians 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. To depart from the flesh is to be at home with the Lord.

Paul couldn't be any clearer than that.

And that's all the time I'm spending on this. If you can't accept what Paul said, and if you can't accept the fact that Revelation plainly speaks of martyred believers in heaven prior to being resurrected, then you'll just have to go on disagreeing.
First thanks for your reply, second, it's you who are ignoring the Biblical scriptures. and third, the scriptures are clear as day. fourth, nor will I argue when scriptures clearly reproof this "intermediate state".

fifth, you said, "Absent from the body.' That means not physically alive".

well I guess you better tell John the revelator, because he went to heaven and was Absent from the body and still alive. Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter".

you said, "Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. To depart from the flesh is to be at home with the Lord". this is your mistake. the Lord Jesus is the first fruit of the resurrection of the dead. and two, he's not sitting next to anyone.

lastly, no Seminary school override any scriptures of God. I'll take the Holy Ghost word any day over any Seminary school opinion. for the scriptures are true, Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Good day.

PICYJAG.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:10 PM
 
20,389 posts, read 9,825,009 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Body with soul is a living being. A physically alive being. At the point of physical death the soul and spirit leave the body and enter into the presence of God. Peter, knowing that he was about to die, spoke of lying aside his dwelling (his body) and departing (2 Peter 1:13-14). Paul speaks of desiring to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8).

The soul isn't anywhere before it is created, and no one knows when the soul of a person is first created. There are various views concerning that subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
What are some of the views? Because the soul is not immortal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The historical views are primarily Traducianism, which views the soul as being propagated as a result of human generation. In other words, this view holds that both the physical body and the immortal, immaterial soul are genetic products of procreation.

And creationism which holds that God immediately creates the soul and joins it with the body either at the point of birth or at some point prior to birth whlle the fetus is still in the womb. And others believe that ensoulment takes place at conception.

I've already provided the Biblical passages which show that the soul does not cease to exist at the point of physical death and I'm not going to repeat them, or myself. People will just have to read my prior posts. And those who persist in denying what those passages say can just go right on denying them. It doesn't change what they say.
I appreciate the references and will do some research, even though I already know that the soul is not immortal.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Mobile, Al.
3,671 posts, read 1,538,062 times
Reputation: 115
Only the spirit is immortal which comes from God who is immortal.
and a soul can be destroyed by God. supportive scripture, Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".

well that ends the immortal soul.

PICYJAG.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:11 PM
 
1,259 posts, read 296,178 times
Reputation: 55
Spirit is what makes YOU - YOU. It is your "BEING". It is those mental principles that define who you are.


The Holy Spirit is the BEING that defines who God is. IT is His BEING.



A Soul is the Spirit being exercised (aka LIFE). Currently we need a body to exercise the Spirit and have life. Therefore, if the body is void of the spirit - we have no life. Now the Holy Spirit is a quicking Spirit (This mean that it, He, imparts LIFE).


So we receive the EARNEST of the Spirit:


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



Earnest is the "pledge" or expectation of the receiving the LIFE.


1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


The Bible teaches that we are "asleep" until the resurrection. We are not alive somewhere else. Our spirit may reside with God while our body may lie in the earth.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:39 PM
 
1,259 posts, read 296,178 times
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1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



From the verse above it is clear that we are ASLEEP until the last trump.
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