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Old 09-30-2018, 07:39 PM
 
20,400 posts, read 9,828,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Are you stupid? You're doing exactly what I said you did. You just took two different statements from two different posts and combined them into this statement in post #36.- "Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. To depart from the flesh is to be at home with the Lord". And you put quote marks around it to make it seem like it was one statement. You took two different contexts and created a context which I never made.

And your reply to my non-existent statement was - ''this is your mistake. the Lord Jesus is the first fruit of the resurrection of the dead. and two, he's not sitting next to anyone.''

In doing so, you falsely implied that I said that Jesus wasn't resurrected.

Are you that stupid that you can't see what you did? You can't combine separate statements into one statement and therefore change the context and claim that someone said something they never said.
He pointed this out to you prior to your above response, which you kept ignoring.
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Old 09-30-2018, 09:52 PM
 
3,029 posts, read 1,056,358 times
Reputation: 2667
Obviously, I have no more idea than the rest of you as to what happens at death. Maybe we will all find out eventually IF life continues after death, or maybe not IF death is final and there is no afterlife.

However, as someone already pointed out, 7th-Day Adventists, usually meticulously having formed their beliefs around scripture, believe that the dead are presently 'sleeping' in their graves. NO Adventist, however, would ever use the term 'soul sleep' ...simply 'sleep' or 'sleeping'. The term 'soul sleep' was invented by someone or someones as a derogatory term to discredit those who believe what the Bible teaches ...equating death with sleep.

There are, in fact, any number of scriptures that refer to those who are presently 'sleeping' in their graves awaiting the resurrection of 'the righteous' which will occur at Jesus' return. Those who dismiss this general teaching have clearly never read their Bible. And, if any of this makes any sense to we mere mortals, if kinda does make sense that everyone receive eternal life at the same time.

Anyway, whether we believe what the Bible might have to say about this issue or that issue, we need to look at what it consistently has to say on a given topic. And, what the Bible consistently says about the state of the dead is that the dead are 'sleeping' in their graves until they are resurrected from their graves on 'the last day'. And, if Paul or anyone else appears to be saying anything differently than this, then he is being misinterpreted.
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Old 09-30-2018, 10:10 PM
 
21,851 posts, read 16,691,085 times
Reputation: 8671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Actually, it is identical in both of your posts above.
Is stupidity running rampant on this forum? I never made the statement that he claimed I made. What is unclear about the fact that he took two separate statements which I did make and combined them into one statement which changed the meaning of what I did say with regard to each statement?
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:17 AM
 
20,400 posts, read 9,828,032 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
First of all, you are ignoring the Biblical references that you've already been provided which clearly show that the soul and spirit of the believer go to heaven at the point of physical death. This means I'm simply wasting my time bothering with this.

I don't intend to drag this out. I'll address 2 Corinthians and that's going to be the end of my participation with this. I'll simply quote the commentary from the Bible Knowledge Commentary. The commentary on 2 Corinthians was done by David K. Lowery.
5:2-4 Paul had written about fixing his eyes ''not on what is seen but on what is unseen'' (4:18). These verses express the same sentiment. Paul's present life was ''wasting away'' (4:16) and he faced ''death'' (4:11-12). Using a figure of speech (metonymy of the effect [groaning] substituted for the cause [suffering]), Paul twice said we groan (5:2, 4; cf. Rom. 8:22-23). But someday, when our heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2, 4) is received , all such groaning and being burdened will give place to laughter and exultation (cf. Luke 6:21; 1 Cor. 15:51-55). What is mortal will be swallowed up by life in immortal, imperishable spiritual bodies in heaven (Phil. 3:21). For Paul his present mortal life was like nakedness, marked by humiliation and privation. Who would want to focus on this abject state in view of the eternal glory that awaited him? (2 Cor. 4:17-18)

A number of commentators and theologians have seen in these verses reference to an ''intermediate state,'' a period between death and resurrection. This view takes one of two forms: (a) Dead (though conscious) believers are without a body while awaiting their resurrection bodies, or (b) dead (though conscious) believers receive an ''intermediate body'' that somehow differs from their forthcoming resurrected bodies. (According to either of these intermediate-state views, Paul was suggesting that he hoped to live till the return of Christ so that he would not experience an ''intermediate state.'') These views, however, seem unwarranted. Paul had only two conditions in view since 4:16, the temporal and the eternal. The introduction of a third is therefore unlikely. It seems clear from 5:4 that being in this tent (cf. 2 Peter 1:13), and unclothed describe mortality while being clothed and possessing a heavenly dwelling depict immortality, without specifying any intervening stages.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, pp. 565-566
Lowery isn't denying an intermediate state between death and resurrection, but in his view Paul did not have the intermediate state in mind at this particular point (verses 1-2).

While awaiting the resurrection body, while awaiting the eternal state, the believer is in heaven as has been clearly shown by Biblical passages already provided. And do you actually think that Paul is contradicting himself. He stated straight out that he preferred to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). That's a part of the very same passage and context of 2 Cor. 5:1-2.

'Absent from the body.' That means not physically alive. And yet, 'at home with the Lord.' Then in Philippians 1:23-24 Paul states that he is torn between the desire to depart and be with Christ or to remain in the flesh for the sake of those to whom he is writing.

Now can that possibly be any clearer? Paul distinguishes between being in the flesh and departing to be with Christ for that is very much better. Put Philippians 1:23-24 with 2 Corinthians 5:8.
2 Corinthians 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. To depart from the flesh is to be at home with the Lord.

Paul couldn't be any clearer than that.

And that's all the time I'm spending on this. If you can't accept what Paul said, and if you can't accept the fact that Revelation plainly speaks of martyred believers in heaven prior to being resurrected, then you'll just have to go on disagreeing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Is stupidity running rampant on this forum? I never made the statement that he claimed I made. What is unclear about the fact that he took two separate statements which I did make and combined them into one statement which changed the meaning of what I did say with regard to each statement?
The stupidity is yours in post number 33 (bolded above), although I really don't care if you remain that way.
What is clear is your claim is fallacious - if you are too blind to see it, then that's on you, not anyone else.
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:40 AM
 
20,400 posts, read 9,828,032 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Are you stupid? You're doing exactly what I said you did. You just took two different statements from two different posts and combined them into this statement in post #36.- "Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. To depart from the flesh is to be at home with the Lord".
They were in the same post, not two different statements from two different posts.

Talk about being hardheaded and arrogant?

Last edited by Jerwade; 10-01-2018 at 12:54 AM..
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
3,139 posts, read 939,100 times
Reputation: 1024
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c View Post
is that all you have to offer?. dismiss.


first, you made that claim. and two, the Lord Jesus is not in NATURAL FLESH, but resurrected FLESH, changed flesh.


question, "How many thrones are there of God?", answer one. so how is he seated next to what's not there. see you have no clue what "RIGHT HAND" means as with the "ARM" of GOD. so Mike please tell us how the Lord Jesus is God's ARM...


LOL, LOL, LOL. Mike, did you hear and ..... "UNDERSTAND" ... what our brother Stephen said? listen, he said the Son of Man, Lord , Lord, Lord, when will they learn. Look, without arguing, please look up the difference between the Son of Man and the Son of God. and then you will "UNDERSTAND" why our brother Stephen said, "Son of man" while in the Spirit. My, My, my.....


since you will never look up what "Right Hand" means it is the POWER of God, and the Bible and common speech is used as a metaphor for the omnipotence of God.

so when our brother Stephen saw JESUS he saw God, the only ONE. Man oh man how hard is it.


you can check my post also.

and as to the raising of Christ, "WHO RAISED CHRIST?". read John 2:18-21.

also you said that the Spirit and Soul goes to heaven, if so, show scripture where soul goes to heaven.

see Mike no one is misrepresenting you but you. why get angry, I'm like my brother the Apostle, Galatians 4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?".

PICYJAG

PS I thought you said you was threw with this topic?..
The main problem I have with most of your posts is the arrogance in them. You don't know any more than we do. And you speak with a haughty tone most of the time. That does not come from the Holy Spirit.
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
3,139 posts, read 939,100 times
Reputation: 1024
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
Obviously, I have no more idea than the rest of you as to what happens at death. Maybe we will all find out eventually IF life continues after death, or maybe not IF death is final and there is no afterlife.

However, as someone already pointed out, 7th-Day Adventists, usually meticulously having formed their beliefs around scripture, believe that the dead are presently 'sleeping' in their graves. NO Adventist, however, would ever use the term 'soul sleep' ...simply 'sleep' or 'sleeping'. The term 'soul sleep' was invented by someone or someones as a derogatory term to discredit those who believe what the Bible teaches ...equating death with sleep.

There are, in fact, any number of scriptures that refer to those who are presently 'sleeping' in their graves awaiting the resurrection of 'the righteous' which will occur at Jesus' return. Those who dismiss this general teaching have clearly never read their Bible. And, if any of this makes any sense to we mere mortals, if kinda does make sense that everyone receive eternal life at the same time.

Anyway, whether we believe what the Bible might have to say about this issue or that issue, we need to look at what it consistently has to say on a given topic. And, what the Bible consistently says about the state of the dead is that the dead are 'sleeping' in their graves until they are resurrected from their graves on 'the last day'. And, if Paul or anyone else appears to be saying anything differently than this, then he is being misinterpreted.
The main thing I don't believe that some Christians do is that God is going to cause a bunch of caskets to arise out of the ground and flip open and put mortal flesh back on dead corpses. I do not believe in that. Nor do I believe ashes will be brought out of jars, forests, oceans, etc. and magically become mortal bodies again.
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:52 AM
 
20,400 posts, read 9,828,032 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
The main thing I don't believe that some Christians do is that God is going to cause a bunch of caskets to arise out of the ground and flip open and put mortal flesh back on dead corpses. I do not believe in that. Nor do I believe ashes will be brought out of jars, forests, oceans, etc. and magically become mortal bodies again.
I wonder, could it be that he raises the essence of who you are from a deep sleep, and gives you a new body?
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Old 10-01-2018, 02:31 AM
 
3,029 posts, read 1,056,358 times
Reputation: 2667
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Obviously, I have no more idea than the rest of you as to what happens at death. Maybe we will all find out eventually IF life continues after death, or maybe not IF death is final and there is no afterlife.

However, as someone already pointed out, 7th-Day Adventists, usually meticulously having formed their beliefs around scripture, believe that the dead are presently 'sleeping' in their graves. NO Adventist, however, would ever use the term 'soul sleep' ...simply 'sleep' or 'sleeping'. The term 'soul sleep' was invented by someone or someones as a derogatory term to discredit those who believe what the Bible teaches ...equating death with sleep.

There are, in fact, any number of scriptures that refer to those who are presently 'sleeping' in their graves awaiting the resurrection of 'the righteous' which will occur at Jesus' return. Those who dismiss this general teaching have clearly never read their Bible. And, if any of this makes any sense to we mere mortals, if kinda does make sense that everyone receive eternal life at the same time.

Anyway, whether we believe what the Bible might have to say about this issue or that issue, we need to look at what it consistently has to say on a given topic. And, what the Bible consistently says about the state of the dead is that the dead are 'sleeping' in their graves until they are resurrected from their graves on 'the last day'. And, if Paul or anyone else appears to be saying anything differently than this, then he is being misinterpreted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
The main thing I don't believe that some Christians do is that God is going to cause a bunch of caskets to arise out of the ground and flip open and put mortal flesh back on dead corpses.

Well, the Bible again mentions that the dead in Christ will be raised 'incorruptible' so that kind of implies that their immortal bodies will not be 'flesh' per se. In the past I pictured the resurrection as being a reversal of what happens at death, i.e. the breath of life (the 'spirit') returns to God who breathed life into the first created being (Adam, I guess) and the body returns to dust from which the first human was evidently created. Reverse that and add an incorruptible body to the mix and, wallah, you have a resurrection and everlasting life! If it was that easy for the Creator the first time then it should be just as easy for the Creator the second time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
I do not believe in that. Nor do I believe ashes will be brought out of jars, forests, oceans, etc. and magically become mortal bodies again.
Don't worry too much about it. I'm sure everything will work out quite satisfactorily in the end.
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Old 10-01-2018, 05:09 AM
Status: "Wild breathtaking recovery" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
3,275 posts, read 894,712 times
Reputation: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I wonder, could it be that he raises the essence of who you are from a deep sleep, and gives you a new body?
Dear Jerwade: There is no indication (at least to me), that the deep sleep our God put Adam1 in when He removed that glorious rib called woman, ever ended! I am going to place a new link for us on C.D. You, as bright as you are, most likely know of it. These books are not canonical, but some are worth reading. For the generally confused & bewildered, just ignore them all!

Begin with Adam & Eve chapter XXXVI to get a hint of how deep we have fallen.

Last edited by Rose2Luv; 10-01-2018 at 05:25 AM..
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