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Old 10-03-2018, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Thank you. To my way of understanding, it’s not faith once you see you’ve made a mistake in your consideration of God. Jesus said, “Blessed are those who believe, without seeing.”
I'm still not sure I'm understanding you, jimmie. When you say, "it's not faith once you see you've made a mistake in your consideration of God," what do you mean? To me, faith is believing that someone greater than yourself (i.e. Jesus Christ) has the power to redeem you and grant you eternal life -- and doing so without proof. I don't believe any of us will have "proof" until we are actually resurrected and stand before God to be judged. I agree that it is more pleasing to God when we have faith than when we insist on proof before believing. But the words you quoted were Jesus' words to Thomas, who required proof of the resurrected Christ before he could believe. Do you think that Thomas was forgiven for doubting and was saved? Or do you think his lack of faith condemned him to eternal torment?
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
That may be according to Mormonism, but not according to universalism.
I believe there may be differences of opinion, even among the world's many universalists. I'd enjoy hearing from some of them.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I believe there may be differences of opinion, even among the world's many universalists. I'd enjoy hearing from some of them.
I was referring to the concept of universal salvation, and I doubt there are differences of opinion regarding that, since it is the cornerstone of universalism. However, if there are different opinions I would also like to hear from a universlist who does not believe in universal salvation.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv View Post
Dear Katz: You demonstrate a union with the Lord. Your perspective is outstanding, and yes, you need to continue!

If some of the rascals on this link do not wish to view your comments, there is another wee link where we can discuss any variance as little as it may be. LOL
Thank you.

So, here are some more of my opinions. And that's all they are... opinions, beliefs, convictions, understandings, interpretations. I'm not stating them as if they were scientifically proven facts.

"Problem #7: Universalism distorts the love of God. Love without justice is not true love, it is permissiveness. Peter Kreeft writes, 'Hell is due more to love than justice. Love created free persons who could choose hell… The fires of hell are made of the love of God.'"

There's so much overlap between these various "problems." So much of what each "problem" states has already been addressed in previous "problems." Love without justice may very well not be true love, but neither is justice without mercy.

I agree that free will is one of the greatest gifts God ever gave mankind. I also agree that laws without consequences are worthless. But we are told in the Bible to forgive not just seven times, but seventy times seven. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to find one single solitary Christian who thought that God was telling us to forgive someone four hundred ninety times, and that then we could stop. We are to keep forgiving until we have lost count of how many times we've forgiven. Would God ask us to be more forgiving than He is? If we are expected to forgive a limitless number of times, why would we think God would do less for us?

Faith in our Savior's love is essential. Repentance for our sins is essential. But once we have entered into a relationship with Jesus Christ, we will be forgiven each and every time we are sincere in our remorse and in our commitment to do better. It doesn't matter how many times we need to start over. That's the beauty of the Atonement.

We human beings see death as the final curtain. Once that curtain falls, God's forgiveness evidently ceases. He's off the hook. He doesn't need to keep forgiving us, even if life dealt us a crappy hand and all the odds were stacked against us. He's just waiting for the moment when He can justifiably condemn all of those unbelievers to eternal torment -- and call it "love." Seriously?

I don't think God sees our lives in the same way we do. He values us every bit as much when we are spirits awaiting the resurrection as He does when we are spirits giving life to mortal bodies here on earth. It's just one big continuum to Him. Life in two different states, but cognizant spirits either way. He isn't going to force anyone to go to Heaven. (If believing that He will is an essential component of universalism, then I guess I'm not a universalist after all.) But, short of coercion, he's going to give us every conceivable opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ, to accept His gospel, to have faith in His power to redeem us, and to continually grow to become more like him. He wants this for us. He wants us to return to His presence, but to return changed for the better. He's a whole lot more patient than we are.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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"Problem #8: Universalism strips the Gospel of its power. If everyone goes to heaven, exactly what is the Good News of the Gospel and why do people need it? Better News (at least from the Universalist’s perspective) is that you don’t need the Good News to be saved."

Universalism (at least as I understand it) is the full powered Gospel. I'd say that the Gospel would be stripped of its power if it lost the ability to save the truly repentant sinner at the moment of death. The Good News is that no one who doesn't actually desire to end up eternally separated from his Creator isn't going to have to be. As I've said many times in various threads, the word "salvation" can mean everything from salvation from permanent death to exaltation and eternal life in God's presence. Everyone who has ever lived is going to be "saved" from the permanence of death. The only thing a person must do to receive salvation from everlasting death is to live and to die. That alone is a pretty big deal! You don't even need to believe in Jesus Christ. You don't need to believe in God. You're going to be raised from the dead by the one who created you in the first place, whether you believe in Him or not.

Now there have been some pretty horrible people live on this earth, people who did some pretty horrible things and who knew better. Maybe they were nominally "Christians"; maybe they weren't. And God's not going to simply turn a blind eye and pretend that those things didn't matter. If someone breaks one of the laws of the land in which he lives, he's going to have to pay the price for it. If he breaks one of God's laws, he's going to have to pay the price for that transgression, too. Except -- if he repents of his sins and trusts in Jesus Christ's redeeming grace, the debt owed has already been paid. Even so, some are slow learners. Some are stubborn and rebellious. They must pay the price for their own sins before they can be forgiven. That sounds to me like a very important reason why we "need the Gospel."
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
If someone breaks one of the laws of the land in which he lives, he's going to have to pay the price for it. If he breaks one of God's laws, he's going to have to pay the price for that transgression, too. Except -- if he repents of his sins and trusts in Jesus Christ's redeeming grace, the debt owed has already been paid. Even so, some are slow learners. Some are stubborn and rebellious. They must pay the price for their own sins before they can be forgiven.
You mean repent after death? Sounds like purgatory-like scenario.

Quote:
That sounds to me like a very important reason why we need the Gospel.
The Gospel is for the living. If you will have a second chance after death, it is obvious one does not need the Gospel in this life.

"Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment"
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You mean repent after death? Sounds like purgatory-like scenario.
Actually, I believe that the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory originated with the earlier Christian doctrine concerning the Spirit World (i.e. Paradise and Prison). It was just modified from how it was originally taught and became a doctrine with only remnants of truth in it.

Quote:
The Gospel is for the living. If you will have a second chance after death, it is obvious one does not need the Gospel in this life.
I see the Gospel as having the same value throughout eternity. In my opinion, life is much better with the knowledge of the Atonement of Jesus Christ than it would be without it. I can't even imagine life devoid of a belief in God and an understanding of His Plan for mankind. I suppose I'd make it though; millions of people have done so, but how much better it could have been for them. I believe that God will allow everyone to have a fair chance to hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. To pretend that everyone had that opportunity during their lifetime is just to ignore the facts. Billions never ever got a first chance.

Quote:
"Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment"
Yes, and they are judged -- judged to be worthy of Paradise or Prison (aka a temporary Hell). But this is not the "Final Judgment." It's just a preliminary one.
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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"Problem #9: Universalism can give someone a false sense of security. If you’re going to be saved no matter what, there is no need for accountability, repentance, faith, or moral effort of any sort. You are eternally untouchable and have nothing to fear. Love wins, so why worry?"

Again, I probably should reiterate that I am not a "universalist." Without making any attempt to explain how I came up with my numbers, as they really don't make all that much difference," I would probably be better described as someone who believes that somewhere along the lines of 99.9999999999% of humanity will end up being "saved." My reasoning is my belief that God would not have even mentioned an "unpardonable sin," a sin that would be so grievous that it will "not be forgiven... neither in this world, neither in the world to come" if there were not going to be at least a few souls who would commit that sin. If everyone were "eternally untouchable," there would likely have been no mention of a sin that could not be forgiven. For reasons I explained in an earlier post, I don't see many people actually ever finding themselves in the position of even being able to commit this sin. In order to commit this sin, a person would have to no longer be walking in faith, but denying a sure knowledge that was given them by the Holy Ghost as to the divinity of Jesus Christ (much like the experience Peter, James and John had at the Transfiguration).

We are each shaped by our cultures and our experiences. God knows that and will not judge the ten-year-old atheist who dies today in North Korea without giving that child the opportunity to come to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In order to receive the greatest rewards the Father has in store for him, that child will indeed have to not only repent of his sins but accept Jesus Christ's Atonement if He is going to be saved. But the grace Jesus Christ offers us is overpowering, and once that child's spirit is released from the indoctrination he received through the regime he lived under, he may immediately embrace the good news of his salvation. He wouldn't be able to do so, though, if he didn't have a chance after death. Maybe he won't accept it immediately, but the pull of His Father in Heaven's love is intense and will almost certainly win out in the end. I can't even understand the rationale behind the belief that he is somehow going to end up as God's eternal firewood. God didn't let His Only Begotten Son die to save perhaps 10% of His creations. He loved the whole world and everyone in it. He is going to give each person a fair shot at salvation, but not a free pass into Heaven.

Last edited by Katzpur; 10-03-2018 at 12:47 PM..
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Florida
62,951 posts, read 34,295,019 times
Reputation: 10454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Actually, I believe that the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory originated with the earlier Christian doctrine concerning the Spirit World (i.e. Paradise and Prison). It was just modified from how it was originally taught and became a doctrine with only remnants of truth in it.
Something like that. Few tweaks and modifications, and you have a whole new thing.

Quote:
I see the Gospel as having the same value throughout eternity. In my opinion, life is much better with the knowledge of the Atonement of Jesus Christ than it would be without it.
Assuming you are right, then better, yes. Necessary for salvation during life, no.

Quote:
Yes, and they are judged -- judged to be worthy of Paradise or Prison (aka a temporary Hell). But this is not the "Final Judgment." It's just a preliminary one.
I do believe there is such judgment right after death, but the Bible does not teach a second chance in "prison". That is where we disagree.

The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars etc go to "prison" after death, and from there to eternal separation from God after final judgment.
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:33 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-make liberals cry again" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,342 posts, read 8,888,322 times
Reputation: 1652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I'm still not sure I'm understanding you, jimmie. When you say, "it's not faith once you see you've made a mistake in your consideration of God," what do you mean? To me, faith is believing that someone greater than yourself (i.e. Jesus Christ) has the power to redeem you and grant you eternal life -- and doing so without proof. I don't believe any of us will have "proof" until we are actually resurrected and stand before God to be judged. I agree that it is more pleasing to God when we have faith than when we insist on proof before believing. But the words you quoted were Jesus' words to Thomas, who required proof of the resurrected Christ before he could believe. Do you think that Thomas was forgiven for doubting and was saved? Or do you think his lack of faith condemned him to eternal torment?
I agree with the bolded. However, from what you described earlier, a person will be in an a spiritual state, aware of their dilemma concerning God and forgiveness, no?
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