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Old 10-03-2018, 12:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, its a start aka "the tip of the iceberg". In order to believe in it, you'll have to denounce much of the Bible, while adding more to it.
Actually, that was done centuries ago, the adding and taking away by the creeds of men.
Which led to your "acceptance" of the false doctrine of eternal damnation, among others.
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I believe there may be differences of opinion, even among the world's many universalists. I'd enjoy hearing from some of them.
I am not a universalist, but I will say that out of the three:

1) Eternal Damnation/Separation
2) Annihilationism/Destructionism
3) Reconciliation of ALL things.

Universal Reconciliation through the mediation of Christ Jesus would be first and foremost for all of humanity. Unfortunately, there are religious fundamentalists who are determined to condemn others without a second thought. It's their way or no way, which is ludicrous but it does reveal their hearts.
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,956 posts, read 22,099,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Assuming you are right, then better, yes. Necessary for salvation during life, no.
Okay, so just for the sake of argument, what do you believe is going to happen to the person who lived his entire life never having even heard the name of Jesus Christ, much less having had the opportunity to accept His gospel?

Quote:
I do believe there is such judgment right after death, but the Bible does not teach a second chance in "prison". That is where we disagree.
Would you mind explaining to me what your understanding is of 1 Peter 3:18-20, which states, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

I would appreciate it if you would include in your comments an answer to these questions:
(1) Who were the "spirits in prison" that Christ preached to?
(2) What is the "prison" being referred to and where might it be?
(2) When did He preach to them?
(3) Were they able to repent of their sins and accept His grace?

Quote:
The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars etc go to "prison" after death, and from there to eternal separation from God after final judgment.
Could you explain what conceivable reason God would have for putting the kinds of individuals you've mentioned in "prison" when He was just going to eventually cast them out of His presence forever? What would be the point of two separate judgments if the final verdict had already been decided and could not be changed?
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,956 posts, read 22,099,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I am not a universalist, but I will say that out of the three:

1) Eternal Damnation/Separation
2) Annihilationism/Destructionism
3) Reconciliation of ALL things.

Universal Reconciliation through the mediation of Christ Jesus would be first and foremost for all of humanity. Unfortunately, there are religious fundamentalists who are determined to condemn others without a second thought. It's their way or no way, which is ludicrous but it does reveal their hearts.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:09 PM
Status: "Wild breathtaking recovery" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
3,255 posts, read 886,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I am not a universalist, but I will say that out of the three:

1) Eternal Damnation/Separation
2) Annihilationism/Destructionism
3) Reconciliation of ALL things.

Universal Reconciliation through the mediation of Christ Jesus would be first and foremost for all of humanity. Unfortunately, there are religious fundamentalists who are determined to condemn others without a second thought. It's their way or no way, which is ludicrous but it does reveal their hearts.
Dear Jerwade: I believe in the One who St Luke pointed to in Acts & the prophets who declared the Restitution of all things from the earliest ages (surprise,surprise). The powerful ta panta koine leaves me in a spot I cannot escape.

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."

Ta panta= 2 words, not just "panta", but "ta" preceeding it.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
62,977 posts, read 34,302,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Would you mind explaining to me what your understanding is of 1 Peter 3:18-20, which states, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

I would appreciate it if you would include in your comments an answer to these questions:
(1) Who were the "spirits in prison" that Christ preached to?
(2) What is the "prison" being referred to and where might it be?
(2) When did He preach to them?
(3) Were they able to repent of their sins and accept His grace?
Reading the passage answers your questions.

1 Peter 3:18-20 He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

They were fallen angels in Hades/Tartaros who committed their sins before the flood, and Jesus didn't preach a sermon, He made a proclamation. It took place between His death on the cross and resurrection. There is no indication of Jesus offering them anything to accept, or them repenting anything.

Jude 1:6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not forgive the angels that sinned, but cast them down into the deepest abyss {Gr. Tartarus} and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Cont: 2 Peter 2 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,956 posts, read 22,099,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I agree with the bolded. However, from what you described earlier, a person will be in an a spiritual state, aware of their dilemma concerning God and forgiveness, no?
It's quite possible that I didn't explain my belief very well. Allow me to give it another try.

As I already mentioned, I believe that when a person dies, it is actually his body that dies and not his spirit. I believe the spirit is eternal and never ceases to be a fully cognizant entity, having self-awareness, thoughts, emotions, the ability to learn and make decisions, etc. Our beliefs probably aren't all that far apart in that regard. It's my understanding that you and most other Christians believe that the spirit immediately goes to Heaven after death, where it resides until the body is resurrected, at which time the body becomes immoral and incorruptible and will spend eternity with God. (How'd I do? I would sincerely welcome any corrections if I got any part of that wrong.)

My belief is that the spirit does not go immediately to Heaven, but awaits the resurrection in an intermediate realm known as the Spirit World. The Spirit World is comprised of both paradise and prison. It's not so much an actual place as a state of mind. So, depending on the way the person lived his life (taking into consideration all of the circumstances beyond his control as well as the choices he had full control over), his spirit will exist in a state of paradise (happiness, joy, rest and anticipation of receiving his resurrected body) or in a state of prison (mental anguish, torment, grief, guilt and dreading his eternal fate). Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I'm right about this and that when you die, you do not find yourself in Heaven but in a very good state of existence, nevertheless. You are aware of your existence but you are without your body. Other than that, you are able to continue to learn new things and perhaps see things in a different way than you did on earth. Let's say that a very, very depraved person dies at the same time you do. He may have been a baptized Christian on earth or he may have been an atheist; it doesn't matter. But, at the moment of death, he comes to realize -- just as you did -- that he's neither in Heaven nor in Hell. As a cognizant being, he is fully aware of what a truly despicable person he was on earth and how much he did to make life a living hell for everyone who came in contact with him. That awareness alone ought to be enough to give him pause. He's not in a good place, and the realization that he hasn't even seen the worst of it yet weighs heavily on him. He can't help but wonder if all is lost, or if there might not still be hope for him. (At the very minimum, the thought might cross his mind: Oh, damn! Maybe those Mormons were right! )

Our spirits are eternal, in my belief, and we're going to be pretty much the same individuals in the Spirit World as we are here on Earth. Some will be open-minded and teachable, willing to admit that there's a lot they don't know. Some will welcome the opportunity to still be able to repent and will feel deep gratitude that God never stopped loving them, even when they were at their worst. Others will be resentful ("Crap! It's not over yet! Well, if it turns out there really is a God, I'm going to give Him a piece of my mind, first chance I get!), bitter over everything they don't see as "fair," stubborn, rebellious and completely unwilling to rethink things. While we will not be encumbered with the cultural baggage we hauled around with us in this life and will no longer "see through a glass darkly," we will otherwise not have changed much at all. We still won't be in God's presence, regardless of how good we were or how devoutly we believed in Christ. We will still be required to have faith. When the person wracked with guilt and remorse over their sins is visited by a follower of Jesus Christ, who offers him hope by telling him that Jesus Christ really did love him enough to have paid the price for his sins, he's still going to have to exercise faith and trust in order to move past his present state and into a happier state to wait for the resurrection.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Florida
62,977 posts, read 34,302,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I am not a universalist
What are you?
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:27 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-make liberals cry again" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,347 posts, read 8,890,323 times
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Katz, I extracted this from your post to Finn, because I wanted to answer this objection.

Quote:
Okay, so just for the sake of argument, what do you believe is going to happen to the person who lived his entire life never having even heard the name of Jesus Christ, much less having had the opportunity to accept His gospel?
Here’s what I believe covers that situation.

Psalm 145

17The LORD is righteous in all His ways and kind in all His deeds. 18The LORD is near to all who call on Him, to all who call out to Him in truth. 19He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him; He hears their cry and saves them.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Florida
62,977 posts, read 34,302,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Katz, I extracted this from your post to Finn, because I wanted to answer this objection.

Here’s what I believe covers that situation.

Psalm 145

17The LORD is righteous in all His ways and kind in all His deeds. 18The LORD is near to all who call on Him, to all who call out to Him in truth. 19He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him; He hears their cry and saves them.
Yes, the Bible teaches everyone who seeks Him will find Him.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 10-03-2018 at 01:49 PM..
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