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Old 10-03-2018, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,959 posts, read 22,113,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Reading the passage answers your questions.

1 Peter 3:18-20 He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

They were fallen angels in Hades/Tartaros who committed their sins before the flood, and Jesus didn't preach a sermon, He made a proclamation. It took place between His death on the cross and resurrection. There is no indication of Jesus offering them anything to accept, or them repenting anything.
Okay, well I guess that despite the fact that we agree on a couple of things, we are going to have to continue to disagree as to what purpose Jesus had in visiting these individuals. Apparently your Bible says he "made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits." The KJV says he "preached" to them. They did not know of Him before that visit, and I can't imagine why He would have visited them in the first place if it could not conceivably have done them any good. 1 Peter 4:6 says, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." Again, the version of the Bible you use may say something slightly different. But I see this as evidence that those who died without ever having heard His gospel were given the opportunity after death.

Quote:
Jude 1:6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not forgive the angels that sinned, but cast them down into the deepest abyss {Gr. Tartarus} and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
By the way, I do believe that one-third of the host of Heaven will be forever cast out of God's presence. They are the spirits who chose to rebel against God and who followed Lucifer in the War in Heaven. What I'm talking about on this thread, though, is not these spirits (who never lived here on the earth) but about people who died without ever having had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,959 posts, read 22,113,760 times
Reputation: 10690
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Psalm 145

17The LORD is righteous in all His ways and kind in all His deeds. 18The LORD is near to all who call on Him, to all who call out to Him in truth. 19He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him; He hears their cry and saves them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, the Bible teaches everyone who seeks Him, will find Him.
I believe that, too -- that the Lord hears all who cry out to Him. That's why I believe He will allow them to choose for themselves to accept Jesus Christ, rather than to just "save" them without their actually understanding the sacrifice that made it all possible.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:50 PM
 
20,389 posts, read 9,825,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I am not a universalist, but I will say that out of the three:

1) Eternal Damnation/Separation
2) Annihilationism/Destructionism
3) Reconciliation of ALL things.

Universal Reconciliation through the mediation of Christ Jesus would be first and foremost for all of humanity. Unfortunately, there are religious fundamentalists who are determined to condemn others without a second thought. It's their way or no way, which is ludicrous but it does reveal their hearts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
What are you?
An intelligent, compassionate and loving human being.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:58 PM
Status: "Living rent-free in Mr. Wade’s head" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,349 posts, read 8,896,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I believe that, too -- that the Lord hears all who cry out to Him. That's why I believe He will allow them to choose for themselves to accept Jesus Christ, rather than to just "save" them without their actually understanding the sacrifice that made it all possible.
OK, I just don’t see an opportunity after this life, revealed in scripture.
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,045 posts, read 34,328,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Okay, well I guess that despite the fact that we agree on a couple of things, we are going to have to continue to disagree as to what purpose Jesus had in visiting these individuals. Apparently your Bible says he "made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits." The KJV says he "preached" to them. They did not know of Him before that visit, and I can't imagine why He would have visited them in the first place if it could not conceivably have done them any good. 1 Peter 4:6 says, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." Again, the version of the Bible you use may say something slightly different. But I see this as evidence that those who died without ever having heard His gospel were given the opportunity after death.

By the way, I do believe that one-third of the host of Heaven will be forever cast out of God's presence. They are the spirits who chose to rebel against God and who followed Lucifer in the War in Heaven. What I'm talking about on this thread, though, is not these spirits (who never lived here on the earth) but about people who died without ever having had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Preach, proclaim, announce mean the same thing when the Greek translation is “heralded a message”.

Why do you think they did not know who Jesus was?

The Bible does not say what Jesus told them, but we know they were not spirits of humans, but fallen angels and there is nothing in the Bible suggesting any of they will ever be saved. There is not a single example where any of them ever repenting. But it seems we agree they are forever cast out.
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,045 posts, read 34,328,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
An intelligent, compassionate and loving human being.
You said you are not a universalist, which means you do not believe in universal salvation. What do you believe happens to people after they die?
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,959 posts, read 22,113,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Preach, proclaim, announce mean the same thing when the Greek translation is “heralded a message”.
Okay, well you said He "did not preach a sermon." That's why I responded as I did.

Quote:
Why do you think they did not know who Jesus was?
I believe we are thinking of these "spirits in prison" as two different groups of individual. You (correct me if I'm wrong) believe they were angels who were cast out of Heaven along with Lucifer. I believe they are the spirits of the dead who lived prior to Jesus Christ, which would explain why they would have been unfamiliar with His gospel.

Quote:
The Bible does not say what Jesus told them, but we know they were not spirits of humans, but fallen angels and there is nothing in the Bible suggesting any of they will ever be saved. There is not a single example where any of them ever repenting. But it seems we agree they are forever cast out.
I don't think we "know" that they were not the spirits of humans. I think you are convinced that they weren't, but I disagree. I realize you do not believe in the pre-existence of human beings, so we're not ever going to be able to reconcile our differences of opinion on this. But I do believe that each and every one of us lived in spirit form with God before being born on this earth. I believe that those who sided with Michael and his angels were later born here on Earth. This would include you and me and every other human being who has ever lived or will yet live. I believe that those who sided with "the dragon" or Lucifer, were cast out of Heaven and never given the opportunity to come to Earth. I believe them to be the Sons of Perdition and I do not believe they will or can be forgiven. As for the rest of us, we can only commit one unforgivable sin; if we do not commit that sin, God can and will forgive us.
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:41 PM
Status: "Wild breathtaking recovery" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
3,275 posts, read 892,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
OK, I just don’t see
Dear Jimmy: It is evident you do not see. Fear not! The One who heals the blind and opens the ears of the deaf, also raises the dead!

In this sad and broken world, all of us cry out for release. There are many who know not what is the foundation of their misery. We proclaim release to the captives!

Ta Panta

ALEXANDER THOMSON: The Meaning of Ta Panta


https://alexanderthomson.blogspot.co...-ta-panta.html

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.."
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,959 posts, read 22,113,760 times
Reputation: 10690
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
OK, I just don’t see an opportunity after this life, revealed in scripture.
I can respect your point of view, jimmie. I guess I just keep going back to the Bible's insistence that we must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. I don't see "crying out to God" as being the same thing as believing in Jesus Christ. Certainly, if a person believes in God at all, regardless of what his exact beliefs are, and if he ever listens to his conscience and recognizes that he has sinned, it is likely that he will "cry out to God." While the Bible doesn't give us any specifics concerning how those who seek for God will find Him, it simply makes sense to me that one can only find God (and Christ) if presented with a true opportunity to do so and not just be "saved" despite never knowing the first thing about the Gospel. Regardless of how it happens, I believe we can agree that God will be just.
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,045 posts, read 34,328,004 times
Reputation: 10466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Okay, well you said He "did not preach a sermon." That's why I responded as I did.

I believe we are thinking of these "spirits in prison" as two different groups of individual. You (correct me if I'm wrong) believe they were angels who were cast out of Heaven along with Lucifer. I believe they are the spirits of the dead who lived prior to Jesus Christ, which would explain why they would have been unfamiliar with His gospel.

I don't think we "know" that they were not the spirits of humans. I think you are convinced that they weren't, but I disagree. I realize you do not believe in the pre-existence of human beings, so we're not ever going to be able to reconcile our differences of opinion on this. But I do believe that each and every one of us lived in spirit form with God before being born on this earth. I believe that those who sided with Michael and his angels were later born here on Earth. This would include you and me and every other human being who has ever lived or will yet live. I believe that those who sided with "the dragon" or Lucifer, were cast out of Heaven and never given the opportunity to come to Earth. I believe them to be the Sons of Perdition and I do not believe they will or can be forgiven. As for the rest of us, we can only commit one unforgivable sin; if we do not commit that sin, God can and will forgive us.
It says they were those who sinned at the time of Noah, and I quoted few other verses which explain the spirits which were put in chains during that time. They were fallen angels.

As for people being born as humans, I assume that is from the Mormon books. No comment on that.

I do not believe it is possible to commit the unforgivable sin (blasphemy of the Spirit) at this age.

But at least we agree abotu the fallen angels. They are doomed.
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