U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-01-2018, 08:35 PM
 
954 posts, read 241,618 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

13 Problems with Universalism

13 problems with Universalism. There are certainly more but this is a good start
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-01-2018, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,956 posts, read 22,099,030 times
Reputation: 10687
I'm going to address each of the 13 "problems" individually, as time permits.

"Problem #1. Universalism is not Just. If evil is not judged, then how is Justice served? If someone does not want to go to heaven, is it just to make them? Do Satan, Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa deserve the same future? Or do Universalists deny Justice?"

I am essentially a universalist in my beliefs. Some people would say that I'm not, because I do believe, based on Matthew 12:32, that "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." This is the "unpardonable sin" but I don't think it means what most Christians think it means, and I believe that only the most minuscule number of people who have ever lived will commit this sin. And if a person does not want to go to Heaven, that's their "out."

Of course I don't believe that it would be just of God to reward Adolf Hitler and Mother Teresa the same, and I don't believe He will. We're told that every man will be rewarded according to his works. Clearly, the greater one's commitment to serving God will result in greater rewards. In 1 Corinthians 15:40-42, Paul said, "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead."

Do you honestly believe that justice would be better served by punishing people forever for the sins they committed during their lifetime? Of course, punishment is just in many cases, but eternal punishment? Really?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2018, 08:59 PM
 
20,350 posts, read 9,815,907 times
Reputation: 1672
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumTingy View Post
13 Problems with Universalism

13 problems with Universalism. There are certainly more but this is a good start
When you begin with a false premise as did the site you posted, then your conclusion will also be false.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2018, 09:00 PM
 
1,259 posts, read 295,698 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumTingy View Post
13 Problems with Universalism

13 problems with Universalism. There are certainly more but this is a good start

I can refute all these points to someone that truly wants to listen.



Let me know which one of the points in your link you would like me to comment on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2018, 09:08 PM
 
20,350 posts, read 9,815,907 times
Reputation: 1672
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumTingy View Post

There are certainly more but this is a good start
Apparently, your comprehension is on the low end of the scale, but let me ask:
How many times have you plucked out your eyes when they cause you to sin?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2018, 09:21 PM
 
954 posts, read 241,618 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I'm going to address each of the 13 "problems" individually, as time permits.

"Problem #1. Universalism is not Just. If evil is not judged, then how is Justice served? If someone does not want to go to heaven, is it just to make them? Do Satan, Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa deserve the same future? Or do Universalists deny Justice?"

I am essentially a universalist in my beliefs. Some people would say that I'm not, because I do believe, based on Matthew 12:32, that "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." This is the "unpardonable sin" but I don't think it means what most Christians think it means, and I believe that only the most minuscule number of people who have ever lived will commit this sin. And if a person does not want to go to Heaven, that's their "out."

Of course I don't believe that it would be just of God to reward Adolf Hitler and Mother Teresa the same, and I don't believe He will. We're told that every man will be rewarded according to his works. Clearly, the greater one's commitment to serving God will result in greater rewards. In 1 Corinthians 15:40-42, Paul said, "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead."

Do you honestly believe that justice would be better served by punishing people forever for the sins they committed during their lifetime? Of course, punishment is just in many cases, but eternal punishment? Really?
First, very thoughtful comments.

It comes down to...what does God say on heaven and hell. We are given a free gift of eternal salvation if we put our faith in Jesus and turn away from sin. But where we spend eternity is not our judgment. So, it doesn’t matter what we think is fair.

Question for you is do you believe God is perfect and holy? If so, then we must have faith in Him. He is sovereign over everything
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2018, 09:33 PM
 
1,259 posts, read 295,698 times
Reputation: 55
The article says "Universalism violates individual free will"

This is not true because Free will is exercised in the Framework that God Controls. The best writing I have read on this was from Augustine of Hippo:


CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)


Augustine could see that God was able to control our wills. Consider this chapter heading:


Chapter 41 [XX.]— The Wills of Men are So Much in the Power of God, that He Can Turn Them Whithersoever It



Chapter 42 [XXI]— God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.



Chapter 43.— God Operates on Men's Hearts to Incline Their Wills Whithersoever He Pleases.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2018, 09:41 PM
 
1,259 posts, read 295,698 times
Reputation: 55
So now that I have answered one article. I'll present an argument against Eternal Torment:


Jesus was sent for the very purpose to destroy sin:


1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.



So according to adherents of Eternal Torment - sinners are only relocated to a new location ("hell"). There sin remains. Therefore, under Eternal Torment there is no eradication of sin.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2018, 09:47 PM
 
1,259 posts, read 295,698 times
Reputation: 55
Also about Judgement. The number ten in the Bible is associate with Judgement. Where often you see it, you see it in relation to judgement being cast. Let's consider Pharoh, Did God use the TEN plagues to get Pharaoh to do as He desired of Pharaoh? Of course He did and Pharaoh did.


Consider the Ten Commandments. Is God using the commandments to eternally torment someone? No, He uses His Commandments to bring about reconciliation to bring about what He desires in us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2018, 10:34 PM
 
954 posts, read 241,618 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeWillCome2040 View Post
So now that I have answered one article. I'll present an argument against Eternal Torment:


Jesus was sent for the very purpose to destroy sin:


1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.



So according to adherents of Eternal Torment - sinners are only relocated to a new location ("hell"). There sin remains. Therefore, under Eternal Torment there is no eradication of sin.
Perfect example of someone taking one verse to support their whole belief system. A final conclusion drawn which does not parallel Scriptures. There is nothing in the Bible that remotely suppports any of this theology.

Universalism fails to answer the question of pain and extreme suffering that happens in present time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top