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Old 10-04-2018, 03:29 PM
 
8,102 posts, read 7,072,801 times
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The promises of Christ and the cross of Jesus you must take literal as salvation from God can depend on it ....... Then there are the histories which you could take literal , and some time the history is explained as a metaphor........ Most of the parables a metaphor for teaching truths ....... Then there is the prophetic Words of God which you could take as literal for to act in faith , but some prophetic Words can be metaphor bringing understanding to many gifts of the spirit at the same time ..... Then there is devils and fallen angels which are unseen in the natural but very real in the spirit which is literal ...............Then there is supernatural events which cannot be understood in the vision of the natural , like Jonah whale , Noah ark , and the red sea crossing if the Israelites you can take literal as history or watered down as a metaphor , God won`t condemn people for not believing these literal
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,266 posts, read 7,654,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Einhander View Post
I don't know. I'm confused. I have a teacher that got me into his church and it's a very casual church. But then, my relative tells me that women cannot be pastors and you have to take the bible 100 percent literally because God wouldn't want you to be confused.

My teacher says i can come to church and believe whatever I want. He said he doesn't want me to be a blind follower.

I already started reading the Bible a little bit and my thoughts are... How do I know this is true just because it's in the book?
If your teacher took the Bible literally he would not set up the Bible as authority since Jesus promised a different "guide" in 3 different places recorded in that Bible. He promised that the Holy Spirit would be with us always and left unequivocal descriptions of what that Spirit is like by which to judge that leading.

Why, Einhander, are you interested in that church?
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:06 PM
 
5,462 posts, read 2,301,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Yes. It is the same word. And if you read 1 Timothy 3, in regards to the qualifications to be a deacon, it also talks about the deacon's wives. Some read that as saying "deaconnesses", so it's not really uncommon for some churches to have women deacons. In any event, a deacon is not a spiritual leader, but is a servant of the church, taking care of the physical needs of the people -- as the first deacons did in Acts 6.

The word simply means servant. It's not clear from reading Romans 16 that Phoebe was someone in the OFFICE of deacon. He called her a servant. Maybe that means she had the functional role of a servant...maybe she was a deaconness. I don't know. But I wouldn't feel comfortable reading into that the idea that women should be elders, which is a different role entirely.
With all respect, I don't think your comfort has much to do with it.

The feminine version of diakonos does not appear in Greek until the 5th Century. In Acts, the four daughters of Phillip are described as having the gift of prophecy so, evidently, men listened to women of the period when it came to spiritual teaching. And of course, there's Deborah who was a respected and righteous prophet and judge of Old Testament times. She claimed to speak for God, commanding Barak to attack the Canaanites. So there's certainly a precedent in Jewish culture for women to not only speak for God to men, but to tell men what to do.

What's more, let's look at the sticking point, namely the claim that Corinthians 14 precludes women from speaking in church. If you quote that verse alone, it may very well be a misinterpretation that stems from a failure to look at the larger passage:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

In other words, is Paul commenting on the inappropriateness of women speaking up in church? Or is he mocking the Corinthians for not permitting women to speak? Verse 36 can certainly be interpreted as sarcasm. I mean, verse 36 wouldn't sound completely out of place if spoken by Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny.

I think one of the weaknesses of the argument citing Corinthians 14:34-35 literally is how little else they're willing to regard literally. Corinthians 11:6, for example:

For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

So. How many of you male readers of this forum are married? If you are a literalist, do you make your wives wear headcoverings in church? If she doesn't, do you shave her head? Or do you fear retribution in the form of a skillet upside the noggin?

Now, unless you march into your den, hand your wife a shawl or hat, and demand she wear it come Sunday, then you are guilty of interpreting scripture as opposed to adapting it to the needs and realities of today.

Last edited by MinivanDriver; 10-04-2018 at 05:09 PM..
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:14 PM
 
40,058 posts, read 26,739,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
If your teacher took the Bible literally he would not set up the Bible as authority since Jesus promised a different "guide" in 3 different places recorded in that Bible. He promised that the Holy Spirit would be with us always and left unequivocal descriptions of what that Spirit is like by which to judge that leading.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:18 PM
 
40,058 posts, read 26,739,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
The feminine version of diakonos does not appear in Greek until the 5th Century. In Acts, the four daughters of Phillip are described as having the gift of prophecy so, evidently, men listened to women of the period when it came to spiritual teaching. And of course, there's Deborah who was a respected and righteous prophet and judge of Old Testament times. She claimed to speak for God, commanding Barak to attack the Canaanites. So there's certainly a precedent in Jewish culture for women to not only speak for God to men, but to tell men what to do.

What's more, the claim that Corinthians 14 precludes women from speaking in church may very well be a misinterpretation, a failure to look at the larger passage:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

In other words, is Paul commenting on the inappropriateness of women speaking up in church? Or is he mocking the Corinthians for not permitting women to speak? Verse 36 can certainly be interpreted as sarcasm.

I think one of the weaknesses of the argument citing Corinthians 14:34-35 literally is how little else they're willing to regard literally. Corinthians 11:6, for example:

For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

So. How many of you male readers of this forum are married? If you are a literalist, do you make your wives wear headcoverings in church? If she doesn't, do you shave her head? Or do you fear retribution in the form of a skillet upside the noggin?

Now, unless you march into your den, hand your wife a shawl or hat, and demand she wear it come Sunday, then you are guilty of interpreting scripture as opposed to adapting it to the needs and realities of today.
Do not trouble yourself dealing with men who need God to give them permission to be superior to women. It takes a very small and insecure mind to need such absurd permission. Men and women do differ physically and carnally, but they do NOT differ spiritually.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:41 PM
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Status: "Feeling suspicious" (set 1 day ago)
 
789 posts, read 409,553 times
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The Bible was written by a community, for a community, in a certain time and place, and should be interpreted within those contexts of that community.
Otherwise, using the Sola Scriptura belief system becomes incredibly problematic.
Often, we pick up a modern day bible, with versions that don't always jive with each other, and then treat it as if it were an exhaustive explanation for all things Christian.
We also read the Bible through rationalistic, western mindsets which has lead to.... 9,000-30,000 different denominations depending on who you ask.
Even if we were to boil them down to the very most basic beliefs, we'd still probably end up with a few hundred denominations.
I believe the Bible to be part of God's revelation to us, a general explanation of the history, beliefs, and practices of the Christian faith. To understand it, one should consider going to the community that wrote it down, canonized it, and passed it along.
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:45 PM
 
941 posts, read 144,455 times
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God says His ways are not man's ways and His thoughts are not man's thoughts. So how can His words be literal?

His words look normal but their meanings are not. At least not to man. This is how sinners are kept out of the kingdom.

There is a code that only the gods know. The gods being the servants of the Lord, His son, Israel.

"Your ways are not my ways nor are your thoughts my thoughts. As high as the heavens are above the earth, that's how high my ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts."


" The Lord guides the humble to justice and He teaches the meek His way. "

" The Lord God does nothing without revealing His secrets to His servants, the prophets "
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Old 10-05-2018, 03:03 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 23,910,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Yes. Scripture is said to be "God-breathed". It's inspired. God doesn't make mistakes, so we can believe it.

Now, the question of "literal". It means that we should read it in the context in which it was written. In our Bible study we're walking through Joshua. One verse says that a monument that they set up is "there to this day as a reminder". That doesn't mean the rock is there now, in 2018. It means it was there when that passage was written.

Another example -- I'm a hunter. Guys love to quote Genesis 27:3 "Now then, get your equipment--your quiver and bow--and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me." to suggest we should go hunting. That verse though, is not suggesting that God is telling us to go hunting. That verse was Jacob speaking to his son, Esau, and requesting he hunt some wild game for him.

We should take it in the context it was written.

Now, in 1 Timothy chapters 2 and 3 Paul is writing to Timothy to instruct him on how to organize the church, and what the qualifications are for a deacon and elder. He specifically says that an elder (Pastors are elders) should be the "husband of one wife"). It's clear that it's simply assumed that a pastor would be male. So, to take this in the context in which it was written, we must conclude that God wishes only men to be pastors.
So if it is "said" to be inspired, the odds are there are errors. Simply because it has been copied over and over by various folks. Do your research and learn how it has changed and why some of the changes were willful, methodical and designed to empower men in high places...
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Old 10-05-2018, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Sumter, SC
1,833 posts, read 2,073,832 times
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Short answer........NO!

Consider the time the Bible was written and assembled. Both old and new testaments were written in a time where there average Joe was uneducated and unsophisticated. The rabbis, teachers and Christ spoke in terms that average people could understand and relate to. They used parables and stories and imagery.

That is why you can’t just pick and choose singular verses from the Bible. You have to interpret the entire text as a whole.
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Old 10-05-2018, 07:46 AM
 
21,851 posts, read 16,691,085 times
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I just noticed that my post, #8, which was meant as a reply to the OP, was accidentally addressed to BaptistFundie. Sorry about that.
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