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Old 10-24-2018, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,310 posts, read 5,505,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
So you were saved by listening to someone who had read scripture or heard from someone who had.
How about all those first century Christians that didn't have a Bible? Were they not saved?

If they were, it is solid evidence that the Bible is not necessary for salvation.

As I previously pointed out, Paul appears to agree:
Quote:
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Romans 1:20
Or do they have your excuse that they had no Bible and therefore could not be saved?
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,310 posts, read 5,505,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Of course they had scriptures. They were grafted into the Jews, which is why they were given 4 things in the law to obey immediately and which means they attended synagogues right along with the ones to whom the scriptures were entrusted to be preserved, and right along with the thousands of Jews who believed in Acts and were said to be even MORE zealous of the law even after believing in Him. Blessings....
Not even the Jewish Torah was evidence of Jesus until AFTER the publication of the gospels. It was at least 20-30 years before even the letters of Paul began to circulate. Jesus was not the subject of the OT. Ask Richard1965 who is a Jew.

Even my daughter-in-law, who is Jewish, agrees that Jesus was never EVER the subject of the Jewish Torah. It was Christians who reinterpreted Scripture to put Jesus into the OT--and that was after the resurrection and principally by Matthew.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 10-24-2018 at 11:08 PM..
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,310 posts, read 5,505,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
To you who brag of being a Pharisee like Paul---read what Paul wrote about BEING a Pharisee:

Quote:
If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness under the Law, faultless; circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin. But whatever was an asset to me I count as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ---
Philippians 4b-8

You brag about something Paul determined was rubbish.
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:50 AM
Status: "Waving a sign that reads John 3:16" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,384 posts, read 8,915,844 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
How about all those first century Christians that didn't have a Bible? Were they not saved?

If they were, it is solid evidence that the Bible is not necessary for salvation.

As I previously pointed out, Paul appears to agree:
Romans 1:20
Or do they have your excuse that they had no Bible and therefore could not be saved?
The first century Christians were saved by the message of Christ, given to them by the apostles teaching or someone who had heard them.

Yes, we can know God by observation of the universe, but we cannot know specifically about Jesus and His mission without the Bible or someone who has read it.

*What translation are you using for Rom. 1 above cause that one is barely the same message as the NASB/NIV/NKJV?
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:55 AM
Status: "Waving a sign that reads John 3:16" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,384 posts, read 8,915,844 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Not even the Jewish Torah was evidence of Jesus until AFTER the publication of the gospels. It was at least 20-30 years before even the letters of Paul began to circulate. Jesus was not the subject of the OT. Ask Richard1965 who is a Jew.

Even my daughter-in-law, who is Jewish, agrees that Jesus was never EVER the subject of the Jewish Torah. It was Christians who reinterpreted Scripture to put Jesus into the OT--and that was after the resurrection and principally by Matthew.
So this is false?

Luke 24

25 And He (Jesus) said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
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Old 10-25-2018, 02:30 AM
 
Location: US
27,998 posts, read 15,082,761 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
The first century Christians were saved by the message of Christ, given to them by the apostles teaching or someone who had heard them.

Yes, we can know God by observation of the universe, but we cannot know specifically about Jesus and His mission without the Bible or someone who has read it.

*What translation are you using for Rom. 1 above cause that one is barely the same message as the NASB/NIV/NKJV?
How do you know that his translation isn’t in fact the correct one?...
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,310 posts, read 5,505,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
The first century Christians were saved by the message of Christ, given to them by the apostles teaching or someone who had heard them.

Yes, we can know God by observation of the universe, but we cannot know specifically about Jesus and His mission without the Bible or someone who has read it.

*What translation are you using for Rom. 1 above cause that one is barely the same message as the NASB/NIV/NKJV?
I used the Living Bible, I think. I have numerous bible translations because every single one of them has problems. Generally, I think the NRSV is better.

Read Acts, the first four chapters. There was an excitement among the 500 or so who had seen Jesus after the resurrection. It was all they could talk about. Why did Luke write his gospel----about which he had no idea that it would 300 years later be called Scripture? Why did John write his?

Both writers indicate that others were giving accounts of Jesus as well. By the time of John's writing there may have been one of Paul's letters with one group, or a partial copy of Mark with another. But it was the witnessing about Jesus that converted people, not the reading of Scripture.

In Acts 4 Peter and John are warned by the Saduccees to shut up. But what do they say?
Quote:
18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20 As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

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Old 10-25-2018, 02:49 PM
Status: "Waving a sign that reads John 3:16" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,384 posts, read 8,915,844 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I used the Living Bible, I think. I have numerous bible translations because every single one of them has problems. Generally, I think the NRSV is better.

Read Acts, the first four chapters. There was an excitement among the 500 or so who had seen Jesus after the resurrection. It was all they could talk about. Why did Luke write his gospel----about which he had no idea that it would 300 years later be called Scripture? Why did John write his?

Both writers indicate that others were giving accounts of Jesus as well. By the time of John's writing there may have been one of Paul's letters with one group, or a partial copy of Mark with another. But it was the witnessing about Jesus that converted people, not the reading of Scripture.

In Acts 4 Peter and John are warned by the Saduccees to shut up. But what do they say?

[/b]
And those people are no longer with us, so we rely on their writings for the specifics about Jesus.
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:30 PM
 
Location: New England
32,287 posts, read 21,136,395 times
Reputation: 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
And those people are no longer with us, so we rely on their writings for the specifics about Jesus.
Shame Jesus couldn't do that himself. I will say it again, bible fundamementalists when they say they have a relationship with Jesus, what they really mean is a relationship with the bible.

Know you not that Jesus Christ(The Living Word of God) is in you?.
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:37 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 23,938,159 times
Reputation: 7812
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
And those people are no longer with us, so we rely on their writings for the specifics about Jesus.
So god is incapable of telling each of us the TRUTH?


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