U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-25-2018, 03:40 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-make liberals cry again" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,347 posts, read 8,892,691 times
Reputation: 1652

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
So god is incapable of telling each of us the TRUTH?

I repeat, we can know about God by observation of our universe, but we cannot know about Jesus and His mission without the Bible or someone who has read it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-25-2018, 03:56 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I repeat, we can know about God by observation of our universe, but we cannot know about Jesus and His mission without the Bible or someone who has read it.
This is a direct refutation and rejection of the New Covenant instituted by Jesus by His death and rebirth as Spirit. Jesus abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." You cannot hear Jesus when you refuse to believe Him and reject what is in your heart to favor words "written in ink" by men interpreting Him using the OT beliefs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2018, 04:10 PM
 
21,817 posts, read 16,678,731 times
Reputation: 8655
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
So god is incapable of telling each of us the TRUTH?

The issue is not what God is capable of, but of how He has chosen to communicate to man. God works through intermediaries. He has used angels, prophets, apostles, and the written word to communicate to mankind. Most importantly, at the right time in human history, God became man in Jesus Christ. But Jesus is no longer on the earth (yes, as God, Jesus indwells all believers, but He is not whispering hidden knowledge to you) , and neither are the apostles. What the apostles recorded in writing has come down to us in the New Testament documents. The Bible is the means by which Church-age doctrine has been preserved for the Church by the apostles.

Anyone who claims that God is revealing new doctrines, new teachings to them is delusional. All teachings for the church is contained in the written word of God. The Holy Spirit does use whatever doctrine a believer has learned and will call it to the believers memory for application.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-25-2018 at 04:29 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2018, 04:39 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-make liberals cry again" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,347 posts, read 8,892,691 times
Reputation: 1652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The issue is not what God is capable of, but of how He has chosen to communicate to man. God works through intermediaries. He has used angels, prophets, apostles, and the written word to communicate to mankind. Most importantly, at the right time in human history, God became man in Jesus Christ. But Jesus is no longer on the earth (yes, as God, Jesus indwells all believers, but He is not whispering hidden knowledge to you) , and neither are the apostles. What the apostles recorded in writing has come down to us in the New Testament documents. The Bible is the means by which Church-age doctrine has been preserved for the Church by the apostles.

Anyone who claims that God is revealing new doctrines, new teachings to them is delusional. All teachings for the church is contained in the written word of God. The Holy Spirit does use whatever doctrine a believer has learned and will call it to the believers memory for application.
As you can see Mike, our liberal friends try to convince others we do not believe in the indwelling of the Spirit, which of course is false.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2018, 04:44 PM
 
Location: New England
32,222 posts, read 21,097,983 times
Reputation: 2274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
As you can see Mike, our liberal friends try to convince others we do not believe in the indwelling of the Spirit, which of course is false.
Since when has believing in something got to do with anything or is actual evidence that you know and experience the Holy Spirit?.

You believe in the bible and the interpretations of man that you have convinced yourself that are beliefs you should unwaveringly believe in that are taught by the Holy Spirit, the interpretations of man are not the Holy Spirit.

Paul said "I know WHOM i believe".... He did not say " I know what I BELIEVE IN"

Last edited by pcamps; 10-25-2018 at 04:56 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2018, 04:50 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is a direct refutation and rejection of the New Covenant instituted by Jesus by His death and rebirth as Spirit. Jesus abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." You cannot hear Jesus when you refuse to believe Him and reject what is in your heart to favor words "written in ink" by men interpreting Him using the OT beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
As you can see Mike, our liberal friends try to convince others we do not believe in the indwelling of the Spirit, which of course is false.
Apparently, you do NOT believe that Jesus is the Living Word of God who abides with us as the Comforter sent in Christ's name since you prefer the dead words "written in ink" rather than the Truth God has "written in our hearts."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2018, 04:51 PM
 
20,360 posts, read 9,819,192 times
Reputation: 1674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The issue is not what God is capable of, but of how He has chosen to communicate to man. God works through intermediaries. He has used angels, prophets, apostles, and the written word to communicate to mankind. Most importantly, at the right time in human history, God became man in Jesus Christ. But Jesus is no longer on the earth (yes, as God, Jesus indwells all believers, but He is not whispering hidden knowledge to you) , and neither are the apostles. What the apostles recorded in writing has come down to us in the New Testament documents. The Bible is the means by which Church-age doctrine has been preserved for the Church by the apostles.

Anyone who claims that God is revealing new doctrines, new teachings to them is delusional. All teachings for the church is contained in the written word of God. The Holy Spirit does use whatever doctrine a believer has learned and will call it to the believers memory for application.
If you are forced to believe that God only speaks through the Bible, then you follow a religion devised by men.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2018, 06:04 PM
 
21,817 posts, read 16,678,731 times
Reputation: 8655
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
As you can see Mike, our liberal friends try to convince others we do not believe in the indwelling of the Spirit, which of course is false.
Yes. Both the Holy Spirit and Jesus indwell all Church-age believers. The Holy Spirit makes the body of the believer a temple for the indwelling of Jesus Christ as the Shekinah Glory just as He resided in the holy of holies in the tabernacle in the wilderness during Israel's desert wanderings.

That believers are in need of teaching by teachers and are not to think that they can advance spiritually based on what ''God has written in our hearts'' as some claim is stated by the New Testament writers who were superintended by the Holy Spirit.

The New Testament epistles were written for the edification of the Church. They contain the apostolic teachings for the church. The apostles were in fact teachers. The writer of Hebrews informed his readers in Hebrews 5:12 that they should have been teachers, but because they were dull of hearing they were themselves in need of being taught the elementary principles of the oracles of God.

Paul writes that Jesus, by way of spiritual gifts, made some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers for the building up of the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-16).

The idea that we can just rely on the Holy Spirit without being taught by those who have teaching gifts, or by studying, not just reading, but studying the Bible, is bogus. When the believer is in fellowship and filled with the Holy Spirit, He will help to make things clear to the believer. But the Holy Spirit minus study on the part of the believer is not going to result in spiritual maturity.

Since the apostles are no longer with us, we have their writings and those who have the gift of pastor/teacher who if they have properly prepared, are the way the church is to grow spiritually.

Some will object and point to 1 John 2:27 where John tells his readers that they have no need for anyone to teach them; while ignoring the context. John's readers had already been taught and were already relatively spiritually mature and had sufficient knowledge to not be deceived by the false teachers whom John was writing about.

As you pointed out, there is a general revelation about God inherent in His creation. But for specific knowledge intended for the church we need the apostolic teachings which are written in the Scriptures.

The usual group on this forum, and on this thread, who claim that all we need is what is written in our hearts, are wrong. But they are not going to change.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2018, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,273 posts, read 5,489,845 times
Reputation: 4046
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
And those people are no longer with us, so we rely on their writings for the specifics about Jesus.
But it isn't the "holy" writing we should rely upon. It is the testimony of eyewitnesses that should stand out. And like all "testimonies," they do not always agree with one another. They are off about the number of women at the tomb. There are two nativity stories. Sometimes the "record" points out similar ideas with opposite testimony as in:

"For whoever is not against us is for us." Mark 9:40

"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." Matt. 12:30


The very inconsistency lends Scripture credibility. That is unless it is your god, in which case you must make up creative stories to "harmonize" different testimonies. That's the trap for bibliolatars who think it's not possible to accept any Scripture other than by making it harmonize. And all that displays is a lack of faith that a "testimony" about a life changing event may have some hyperbole in it and still convey the main message---Jesus was raised from the dead.


To have trust in God one must see beyond the Sacred Page.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2018, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,273 posts, read 5,489,845 times
Reputation: 4046
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I repeat, we can know about God by observation of our universe, but we cannot know about Jesus and His mission without the Bible or someone who has read it.
Yet Paul said people are without excuse for not knowing God by observation. He condemns them for THAT in Romans one, not for failing to have knowledge about Jesus. Your theology would be something of a staircase.
1. You have to know about God because of the universe.
2. You have to be convicted to find Jesus because of knowing about God from the universe.

Except that isn't what Scripture states-- at least from Paul in his letter to Romans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top