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Old 10-25-2018, 06:27 PM
 
20,419 posts, read 9,834,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Since the apostles are no longer with us, we have their writings and those who have the gift of pastor/teacher who if they have properly prepared, are the way the church is to grow spiritually.
If that were so, then you wouldn't have the false teachings of Eternal damnation or that of the Penal Substitution theory just to name a couple. But you go right on following the theories and teachings of man as your trusted adviser.
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Old 10-25-2018, 06:57 PM
 
40,090 posts, read 26,750,404 times
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
If you are forced to believe that God only speaks through the Bible, then you follow a religion devised by men.
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:39 PM
Status: "Living rent-free in Mr. Wade’s head" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,363 posts, read 8,903,254 times
Reputation: 1659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Yet Paul said people are without excuse for not knowing God by observation. He condemns them for THAT in Romans one, not for failing to have knowledge about Jesus. Your theology would be something of a staircase.
1. You have to know about God because of the universe.
2. You have to be convicted to find Jesus because of knowing about God from the universe.

Except that isn't what Scripture states-- at least from Paul in his letter to Romans.
#2 is NOT what I said. I said we cannot know the specifics about Jesus without scripture.
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:41 PM
 
40,090 posts, read 26,750,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
If that were so, then you wouldn't have the false teachings of Eternal damnation or that of the Penal Substitution theory just to name a couple. But you go right on following the theories and teachings of man as your trusted adviser.
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Old 10-26-2018, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,287 posts, read 5,497,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
#2 is NOT what I said. I said we cannot know the specifics about Jesus without scripture.
Do you believe one can find God WITHOUT finding Jesus? Apparently Paul did, because he stated that unbelievers were without excuse. It certainly appears they would have an excuse if no one gave them a Bible. But Paul wouldn't have known about the Bible when he wrote his Roman letter. The "Bible" wouldn't come into existence for nearly 300 years. Only fragments of letters and gospels floated around even in the second century.

The Apostles were given authority by Jesus to bind on earth what had been bound in heaven, and loose on earth what had been loosed in heaven (Matthew 18:18). This authority was never transferred to anyone else, nor could it be, since much of the authority inherent in the Apostles was based in their participation in and witness of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus ( Luke 24:44-48, Acts 1:8, 16-22, 1 Corinthians 9:1).

The oldest NT text we have is a papyrus fragment of John (John 18:31-33, 18:37-38) that dates to roughly 125 CE. The oldest complete Bible dates to the middle of the fourth century and is an interesting abrogation to the Bibles we have. It is called the Codex Sinaiticus.

Quote:
The text of Codex Sinaiticus differs in numerous instances from that of the authorized version of the Bible in use during Tischendorf’s time. For example, the resurrection narrative at the end of Mark (16:9–20) is absent from the Codex Sinaiticus. So is the conclusion of the Lord’s Prayer: “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen” (Matthew 6:13). The woman caught in adultery from John 8 is omitted in Codex Sinaiticus. According to James Bentley, Tischendorf was not troubled by the omission of the resurrection in Mark because he believed that Matthew was written first and that Mark’s gospel was an abridged version of Matthew’s gospel. If this were true, the absence of resurrection in Mark would not be a problem because it appears in the older Matthean gospel. Modern scholarship generally holds that Mark is in fact the oldest of the Synoptic Gospels, which could cause theological concerns over the omitted resurrection.

One other omission in Codex Sinaiticus with theological implications is the reference to Jesus’ ascension in Luke 24:51. Additionally, Mark 1:1 in the original hand omits reference to Jesus as the Son of God.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...new-testament/

So are the "original" manuscripts the inspired, infallible word of God? If so, your theology needs a bit of a rework.

Point being, the "Bible" wasn't the reliable source for the earliest Christians, it was the eyewitnesses and the Holy Spirit that poured out on many on the Day of Pentecost. Your bible emphasis is but a denigration of the way Christians found Jesus WITHOUT a Bible, but WITH a Holy Spirit.
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Old 10-26-2018, 06:16 AM
Status: "Living rent-free in Mr. Wade’s head" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,363 posts, read 8,903,254 times
Reputation: 1659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Do you believe one can find God WITHOUT finding Jesus? Apparently Paul did, because he stated that unbelievers were without excuse. It certainly appears they would have an excuse if no one gave them a Bible. But Paul wouldn't have known about the Bible when he wrote his Roman letter. The "Bible" wouldn't come into existence for nearly 300 years. Only fragments of letters and gospels floated around even in the second century.

The Apostles were given authority by Jesus to bind on earth what had been bound in heaven, and loose on earth what had been loosed in heaven (Matthew 18:18). This authority was never transferred to anyone else, nor could it be, since much of the authority inherent in the Apostles was based in their participation in and witness of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus ( Luke 24:44-48, Acts 1:8, 16-22, 1 Corinthians 9:1).

The oldest NT text we have is a papyrus fragment of John (John 18:31-33, 18:37-38) that dates to roughly 125 CE. The oldest complete Bible dates to the middle of the fourth century and is an interesting abrogation to the Bibles we have. It is called the Codex Sinaiticus.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...new-testament/

So are the "original" manuscripts the inspired, infallible word of God? If so, your theology needs a bit of a rework.

Point being, the "Bible" wasn't the reliable source for the earliest Christians, it was the eyewitnesses and the Holy Spirit that poured out on many on the Day of Pentecost. Your bible emphasis is but a denigration of the way Christians found Jesus WITHOUT a Bible, but WITH a Holy Spirit.
Yes, one can find God without Jesus, but without scripture (or someone who has read it or heard directly from the apostles), they will not know the specifics about Jesus, such as His redemptive work, His teachings, His miracles, etc.
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Old 10-26-2018, 08:49 AM
 
Location: New England
32,233 posts, read 21,115,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Yes, one can find God without Jesus, but without scripture (or someone who has read it or heard directly from the apostles), they will not know the specifics about Jesus, such as His redemptive work, His teachings, His miracles, etc.
Do you have a scripture to support this belief ?. Thought not.
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Old 10-26-2018, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,287 posts, read 5,497,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Yes, one can find God without Jesus, but without scripture (or someone who has read it or heard directly from the apostles), they will not know the specifics about Jesus, such as His redemptive work, His teachings, His miracles, etc.
I can agree with "specifics about Jesus."

On the other hand, people are specifically misled when taught that the Bible can be accepted literally. My previous post points out the differences in how Scripture was recorded, different story accounts, etc. For me it makes Scripture sound far more reasoned (because eyewitness testimony frequently conflicts) than if it were "perfect" as fictionally created in the minds of some men to justify not JESUS, but the Bible.

If one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as spoken of by other "liberal" posters, then the inconsistencies are accepted and understood in light of Jesus.

Why is it that "liberal" posters are almost always speaking of the love of Christ for all, when rarely does that arise from "bible-believers" who are more interested of convicting other people of the sins they themselves apparently never commit?
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Old 10-27-2018, 11:58 PM
 
9,280 posts, read 3,153,478 times
Reputation: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Not even the Jewish Torah was evidence of Jesus until AFTER the publication of the gospels. It was at least 20-30 years before even the letters of Paul began to circulate. Jesus was not the subject of the OT. Ask Richard1965 who is a Jew.

Even my daughter-in-law, who is Jewish, agrees that Jesus was never EVER the subject of the Jewish Torah. It was Christians who reinterpreted Scripture to put Jesus into the OT--and that was after the resurrection and principally by Matthew.

That is utter nonsense. He's in every page of it, mostly hidden in plain sight, not so hidden in certain books. His life, death and resurrection was the witness of the Torah, which is why He is the Torah made flesh, or visible. Just because they didn't speak of Him, doesn't mean they weren't aware after His appearance, who He was. Every aspect of the Passover Seder, for instance, clearly points to Him. Blessings...
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Old 10-28-2018, 12:06 AM
 
9,280 posts, read 3,153,478 times
Reputation: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
To you who brag of being a Pharisee like Paul---read what Paul wrote about BEING a Pharisee:

Philippians 4b-8

You brag about something Paul determined was rubbish.

Are you really that blind? Seriously, can you not read with comprehension Acts chapters 19-21? Paul was on trial for his life with the Jewish High Court, for LIES being told about him, namely that he DIDN'T still worship in the manner of his fathers, ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, which included every aspect of the Torah/instructions. Just him presenting himself to the court, since he was a Roman citizen and under no obligation to do so, means he still was part of the Jewish faith. His confession that he STILL worshipped in the manner of his fathers, coincided with him being RITUALLY cleansed, bringing offerings, taking vows, and presenting himself in Jerusalem on what would have had to have been one of the 3 main feasts, ALL of which was prescribed by Torah, occurred near the end of his life and ministry. Meaning, he was still a Jew, still obeyed Torah, and you have sided with his accusers by believing otherwise. But, you are in good company as most of the harlot's daughter's believe likewise. Never let the facts interfere with your opinion seems to be their motto as near as I can tell. Acts is plain, as well as several other chapters. Blessings....
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