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Old 10-18-2018, 10:07 PM
 
21,845 posts, read 16,691,085 times
Reputation: 8661

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You're arguing against what is stated in the Bible which states both in the Old Testament, and in the New, that the suffering servant, Jesus, rendered Himself as a guilt offering and bore the transgression in place of those for whom the stroke was due. He bore the sins of many. That's substitution (Isaiah 53).

Jesus stated that He gave His life, which is a reference to His death on the cross, as a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for (ἀντὶ) many."

That preposition ἀντὶ means 'in place of,' 'instead of.' It connotes substitution. And so, as a matter of fact does the noun 'ransom.' Jesus paid a ransom for us with His death on the cross. God didn't just let Jesus be killed so He could say 'I love you.' He sent Jesus into the world to go to the cross in order to provide salvation for the world. Jesus, who knew no sin and was innocent, bore our sins in His own body on the cross. And that is how God said 'I love you.' By offering up His Son to die for us so that anyone who believes on Jesus could have everlasting life.

Denying that the Bible says this, or denying that what the Bible says about this is true simply indicates negative volition on your part.

This is what the Bible says, and you can either accept it or reject it. Making unsupported assertions in which you simply deny what the Bible says is not an intelligent argument for your position and simply wastes peoples time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
He overcame sin and death in the flesh, dissolving its hold on men which had nothing to do with being a substitution for your sin. In addition, you are not the authority of what the Bible says, nor one that I should follow. And, as you already know, but refuse to admit the truth of - is that for (ἀντὶ) carries the meaning of "because of" the sins of many. His lack of having any sin is contrasted with that of our having a sinful nature, and when people know to do that which is good; and do not! Then, they have missed the mark.

Remember these words: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

He desired mercy, not sacrifice.
Again, you simply ignore what the Bible says, pretend it doesn't say it, and make up your own belief. The Bible shows you to be a liar.

And no, I don't refuse to admit that the Greek preposition ἀντὶ can carry the meaning of 'because of.' But it's primary meaning has to do with substitution. Here is what Dan Wallace says concerning it.
Avti

A. Basic Uses (with Genitive only)

1. Substitution: instead of, in place of

2. Exchange/ Equivalence: for, as, in the place of

The notion of exchange and substition are quite similar, often blending into each other.

3. Cause (debatable): because of²¹

²¹Even granting ἀντὶ a causal force is not to deny the notion of substitution/exchange. See discussion below.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Daniel B. Wallace, p. 364
Wallace then takes the next three pages to discuss the meaning of the preposition ἀντὶ.

And you simply ignore the other things I'v already mentioned.

Jesus died for our sins and took the punishment that was due us. He was our substitute. Denying that fact doesn't change it.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:29 PM
 
20,389 posts, read 9,828,032 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
He overcame sin and death in the flesh, dissolving its hold on men which had nothing to do with being a substitution for your sin. In addition, you are not the authority of what the Bible says, nor one that I should follow. And, as you already know, but refuse to admit the truth of - is that for (ἀντὶ) carries the meaning of "because of" the sins of many. His lack of having any sin is contrasted with that of our having a sinful nature, and when people know to do that which is good; and do not! Then, they have missed the mark.

Remember these words: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

He desired mercy, not sacrifice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, you simply ignore what the Bible says, pretend it doesn't say it, and make up your own belief. The Bible shows you to be a liar.
The Bible is not inerrant or infallible, but you can pretend that it says something that it doesn't? In addition to that of eternal punishment.

However, that in, and of itself does not make me a liar. And, you do not own the rights to what it means to be a follower of Christ.

Quote:
And no, I don't refuse to admit that the Greek preposition ἀντὶ can carry the meaning of 'because of.' But it's primary meaning has to do with substitution. Here is what Dan Wallace says concerning it.
Frankly, I couldn't care less what Wallace has to say, he is not my God, neither is the Bible.

Last edited by Jerwade; 10-18-2018 at 10:42 PM..
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:40 AM
 
21,845 posts, read 16,691,085 times
Reputation: 8661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, you simply ignore what the Bible says, pretend it doesn't say it, and make up your own belief. The Bible shows you to be a liar.

And no, I don't refuse to admit that the Greek preposition ἀντὶ can carry the meaning of 'because of.' But it's primary meaning has to do with substitution. Here is what Dan Wallace says concerning it.
Avti

A. Basic Uses (with Genitive only)

1. Substitution: instead of, in place of

2. Exchange/ Equivalence: for, as, in the place of

The notion of exchange and substition are quite similar, often blending into each other.

3. Cause (debatable): because of²¹

²¹Even granting ἀντὶ a causal force is not to deny the notion of substitution/exchange. See discussion below.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Daniel B. Wallace, p. 364
Wallace then takes the next three pages to discuss the meaning of the preposition ἀντὶ.

And you simply ignore the other things I've already mentioned.

Jesus died for our sins and took the punishment that was due us. He was our substitute. Denying that fact doesn't change it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Bible is not inerrant or infallible, but you can pretend that it says something that it doesn't? In addition to that of eternal punishment.

However, that in, and of itself does not make me a liar. And, you do not own the rights to what it means to be a follower of Christ.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what Wallace has to say, he is not my God, neither is the Bible.
Of course you don't care what Wallace says. Wallace is an expert in Greek and shows you up and so you just ignore what he says.

To claim that I'm pretending that the Bible says something it doesn't when I quoted Mark 10:45, which says exactly what I said it says is feeble. Jesus gave his life as a ransom, as a substitute (ἀντὶ) for many.

And no, you are not a follower of Jesus. You don't even believe that he paid the penalty for your sins.

Your posts reflect not only negative volition toward Biblically revealed truth, but also a person who can't even make an intelligent argument and so just goes 'Nuh uh.' And as I told you in the other thread, you don't merit any further attention. I'm not spending all my time replying to your denials which you can't even back up with an intelligent argument.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:35 PM
 
20,389 posts, read 9,828,032 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
He overcame sin and death in the flesh, dissolving its hold on men which had nothing to do with being a substitution for your sin. In addition, you are not the authority of what the Bible says, nor one that I should follow. And, as you already know, but refuse to admit the truth of - is that for (ἀντὶ) carries the meaning of "because of" the sins of many. His lack of having any sin is contrasted with that of our having a sinful nature, and when people know to do that which is good; and do not! Then, they have missed the mark.

Remember these words: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

He desired mercy, not sacrifice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, you simply ignore what the Bible says, pretend it doesn't say it, and make up your own belief. The Bible shows you to be a liar.

And no, I don't refuse to admit that the Greek preposition ἀντὶ can carry the meaning of 'because of.' But it's primary meaning has to do with substitution. Here is what Dan Wallace says concerning it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Bible is not inerrant or infallible, but you can pretend that it says something that it doesn't? In addition to that of eternal punishment.

However, that in, and of itself does not make me a liar. And, you do not own the rights to what it means to be a follower of Christ.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what Wallace has to say, he is not my God, neither is the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Of course you don't care what Wallace says. Wallace is an expert in Greek and shows you up and so you just ignore what he says.

To claim that I'm pretending that the Bible says something it doesn't when I quoted Mark 10:45, which says exactly what I said it says is feeble. Jesus gave his life as a ransom, as a substitute (ἀντὶ) for many.

And no, you are not a follower of Jesus. You don't even believe that he paid the penalty for your sins.

Your posts reflect not only negative volition toward Biblically revealed truth, but also a person who can't even make an intelligent argument and so just goes 'Nuh uh.' And as I told you in the other thread, you don't merit any further attention. I'm not spending all my time replying to your denials which you can't even back up with an intelligent argument.
If you want to believe that the Bible is inerrant and/or infallible that's your choice, but nowhere does it say that?
What you believe and ignorantly think is irrelevant! And, has nothing to do with where I stand or what I believe.
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