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Old 10-18-2018, 07:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I agree that Gotquestions is not the best place to support one's conclusions. But neither is your interpretation. And, yes, I have searched and studied the Calvinistic and Arminianism perspectives and would never succumb to the fearmongering of eternal damnation which is present within both of those beliefs.

The gospel message has nothing to do with threatening humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Did I say that the gospel message had anything to do with threatening humanity? The gospel is good news. The fact that humanity is under condemnation is not good news. The good news is what God has done about the fact that man is under condemnation. For that reason, God sent His Son into the world to go to the cross and to pay the penalty for our sins. The Bible is clear about this. Your refusal to believe it doesn't alter the facts.
The false dogma of eternal damnation, torment or punishment has been the threat from the Churches, which is something you believe-in. But the good news is that humanities "missing the mark" is not being held against them. Therefore, there is no reason to get on our knees because someone says, "believe this or else."

Last edited by Jerwade; 10-18-2018 at 08:02 PM..
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinacled View Post
Oh,
which was part was an affront?
All I heard was free gift!

Maybe my selective hearing is the issue"
Because Mike misrepresented what the article said. He claimed it took a Calvinist view. That is not true. They surely would have noted it as such. The Predestination opinion of the article dates back Augustine as mentioned.

The article is fair and explain both sides well; man’s will and God’s sovereignty. You don’t have to agree with it but should not speak falsely about it.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:58 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 9 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,773 posts, read 13,399,507 times
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Christians are their own worst enemies.


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Old 10-18-2018, 08:37 PM
 
40,041 posts, read 26,720,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The false dogma of eternal damnation, torment or punishment has been the threat from the Churches, which is something you believe-in. But the good news is that humanities "missing the mark" is not being held against them. Therefore, there is no reason to get on our knees because someone says, "believe this or else."
True, our "missing the mark" is not being held against us because Jesus DIDN'T!
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The view expressed by Gotquestions concerning election and predestination is the Calvinist interpretation. But it is not Biblical. The Calvinist view of election and predestination fails to take into account and cannot explain why since God desires that all men be saved as per 1 Timothy 2:4, and doesn't desire that anyone perish as per 2 Peter 3:9 why He would then sovereignly decree to elect and predestine only certain people while leaving others under condemnation.

That view logically implies that while God wants to save everyone, and although He is Sovereign and all powerful, yet for some reason, He is unable to save everyone. It is true that not everyone will be saved despite the fact that God desires that all be saved. And the reason is because by God's sovereign will, in human history the volition of man co-exists with the sovereignty of God. God limits the use of His sovereignty so that human volition can act contrary to God's will.

The issue in salvation is whether a person will respond to the gospel message by believing in Christ Jesus. That is, by believing that Jesus died for his sins and rose again. Anyone who believes this and as a result simply trusts in the finished redemptive work of Jesus on the cross has eternal life.

The issue in predestination isn't even salvation. The object of predestination is not salvation, but what anyone who believes in Christ is predestined to. God in His foreknowledge knows who will volitionally respond to the gospel message and receive Jesus as Savior. And knowing this, He elects them and predestines them to be conformed to the image of His Son and to be glorified as per Romans 8:29-30.

A person's volitional response to the gospel message determines whether or not he will be eternally saved. God doesn't withhold salvation from a person without regard to a person's volition. Jesus said to the group of people to whom he was speaking, ''and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life'' (John 5:40).

The invitation to eternal life is for everyone. One need only accept the invitation by placing his faith in Jesus Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumTingy View Post
This is incorrect on multiple fronts. Read the article again. They do explan Predestination versus man’s free will. They explain far better than just presumptions and opinions.

But let me ask you one question. What do you think it means to have faith in Jesus?
No, it is not incorrect on multiple fronts.

I have read the article again, and it takes the position of Calvinism, that God chooses who will be saved without regard for human volition. Basically the idea is that if God has chosen you to be saved you will come to have faith. In other words, in Calvinism salvation comes before faith. And that is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

From the article.
The difference boils down to this: who has the ultimate choice in salvation—God or man? In the first view (the prescient view), man has control; his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God’s election. God can provide the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, but man must choose Christ for himself in order to make salvation real. Ultimately, this view diminishes the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty. This view puts the Creator's provision of salvation at the mercy of the creature; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. In reality, the prescient view of election is no view of election at all, because God is not really choosing—He is only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.

https://www.gotquestions.org/elect-of-God.html
The article takes the position, and misunderstands it, that if a person is saved because he chooses of his own 'free will' to place his faith and trust in Christ for his salvation that it diminishes the Biblical understanding of God's sovereignty. God doesn't have to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. He already knew from eternity past who would and who would not believe the gospel. Again, predestination doesn't refer to salvation, but to what those who believe in Christ are predestined to.

Contrary to what the article says, man having 'free will,' actually volition does not make that volition sovereign. Man must make a volitional decision with regard to the gospel. If he has a positive response and believes in Christ then he receives eternal life. If he rejects the gospel then he remains under condemnation.

Again, as was shown from two different verses, God does not desire that anyone perish, but that all men be saved. Therefore, God does not predestine certain people to be saved while leaving others in condemnation. And God does not provide the faith that is necessary to be saved. Faith is a response to the gospel message. And faith is trust in the veracity of another. To have faith in Jesus is to trust in his finished redemptive work on the cross. To believe in Christ is to accept that he died for your sins and that he rose again.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The false dogma of eternal damnation, torment or punishment has been the threat from the Churches, which is something you believe-in. But the good news is that humanities "missing the mark" is not being held against them. Therefore, there is no reason to get on our knees because someone says, "believe this or else."
Once again, all you do is make assertions devoid of any intelligent argument for your position. And you have changed the subject from the issue that Jesus died for our sins, in our place, as our substitute, to the fact that our sins are not being held against us, but without acknowledging WHY our sins are not being held against us which is because Jesus took our punishment on Himself and paid the penalty for our sins.

And like it or not, and you don't, the Bible makes a distinction between those who have eternal life and those who don't but will undergo eternal punishment.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:53 PM
 
20,350 posts, read 9,815,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The false dogma of eternal damnation, torment or punishment has been the threat from the Churches, which is something you believe-in. But the good news is that humanities "missing the mark" is not being held against them. Therefore, there is no reason to get on our knees because someone says, "believe this or else."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Once again, all you do is make assertions devoid of any intelligent argument for your position. And you have changed the subject from the issue that Jesus died for our sins, in our place, as our substitute, to the fact that our sins are not being held against us, but without acknowledging WHY our sins are not being held against us which is because Jesus took our punishment on Himself and paid the penalty for our sins.

And like it or not, and you don't, the Bible makes a distinction between those who have eternal life and those who don't but will undergo eternal punishment.
You can shake that bush all you want, but there is no such thing as eternal punishment. And the penal substitution theory is a fallacy for which no argument is necessary, except that of arguing for it from a position of ignorance.

And, it is plain to see that you do not know the meaning of forgiveness.

Last edited by Jerwade; 10-18-2018 at 10:03 PM..
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:58 PM
 
40,041 posts, read 26,720,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Once again, all you do is make assertions devoid of any intelligent argument for your position. And you have changed the subject from the issue that Jesus died for our sins, in our place, as our substitute, to the fact that our sins are not being held against us, but without acknowledging WHY our sins are not being held against us which is because Jesus took our punishment on Himself and paid the penalty for our sins.
God does NOT punish and certainly NOT for eating a fruit BEFORE even knowing the difference between right and wrong! That is an absurdly primitive and childish interpretation of our first lesson about Good and Evil.
Quote:
And like it or not, and you don't, the Bible makes a distinction between those who have eternal life and those who don't but will undergo eternal punishment.
Wrong. Nothing Good can come from eternal punishment. It is an evil consequence that only serves an unbelievably unconscionable vengeance. Our God would never be so evil.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
God does NOT punish and certainly NOT for eating a fruit BEFORE even knowing the difference between right and wrong! That is an absurdly primitive and childish interpretation of our first lesson about Good and Evil. Wrong. Nothing Good can come from eternal punishment. It is an evil consequence that only serves an unbelievably unconscionable vengeance. Our God would never be so evil.
Yes, God does punish, and eternal punishment is clearly taught in the Bible. You refuse to believe what the apostles wrote, and set yourself up as having greater knowledge and understanding of God then they had. You are very sadly mistaken. And the god you speak of is not the God of which the Bible, both Old and New Testament speaks of.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:46 PM
 
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If you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves and then punish them.

Thomas More
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