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Because Mike misrepresented what the article said. He claimed it took a Calvinist view. That is not true. They surely would have noted it as such. The Predestination opinion of the article dates back Augustine as mentioned.
The article is fair and explain both sides well; man’s will and God’s sovereignty. You don’t have to agree with it but should not speak falsely about it.
And I will not speak of things that are not of the Kingdom
When will you ignore the scoffwrs ..
Better yet
Turn the tide and help a friend who plows in winter.
Yes, God does punish, and eternal punishment is clearly taught in the Bible. You refuse to believe what the apostles wrote, and set yourself up as having greater knowledge and understanding of God then they had. You are very sadly mistaken. And the god you speak of is not the God of which the Bible, both Old and New Testament speaks of.
Mike, of course He punishes but forever? Really? I would not accept UR unless scripture backs it up. Guess what , it does. You need to study it more, but it seems you have your mind made up no matter what. Like a car mechanic who loves cars but decides to torch them instead of repair them, what's the difference?
Mike, of course He punishes but forever? Really? I would not accept UR unless scripture backs it up. Guess what , it does. You need to study it more, but it seems you have your mind made up no matter what. Like a car mechanic who loves cars but decides to torch them instead of repair them, what's the difference?
Universalists believe the Bible backs their views. Annihilationists believe the Bible backs their views. Those who believe in eternal condemnation believe the Bible backs their views. They cannot all be right.
Your statement that I need to study the Bible more ignores the reality of theologians who have studied the Bible extremely well and believe in eternal punishment.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Bible contrasts those who have eternal life with those who will go away into eternal punishment. They will be eternally punished, not because of sin which was paid for on the cross, but because they rejected God's offer of salvation and therefore were never credited with the righteousness of Jesus. This means that all they have is their own imperfect righteousness to stand on which simply is not good enough to satisfy the perfect righteousness of God. As a result they will be forever separated from God.
Universalists believe the Bible backs their views. Annihilationists believe the Bible backs their views. Those who believe in eternal condemnation believe the Bible backs their views. They cannot all be right.
Your statement that I need to study the Bible more ignores the reality of theologians who have studied the Bible extremely well and believe in eternal punishment.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Bible contrasts those who have eternal life with those who will go away into eternal punishment. They will be eternally punished, not because of sin which was paid for on the cross, but because they rejected God's offer of salvation and therefore were never credited with the righteousness of Jesus. This means that all they have is their own imperfect righteousness to stand on which simply is not good enough to satisfy the perfect righteousness of God. As a result they will be forever separated from God.
Mike, yes, there is eternal separation. The soul that sinneth will NEVER enter the kingdom. What you don't get is this..the punishment is ALWAYS there, the Lake of Fire is eternal, they will stand outside the kingdom and weep and this will go on forever UNTIL God rescues them. This is what is meant by eternal punishment, the punishment is always there for someone to partake in if they choose. The old self, the Saul is destroyed by it. The new man, Paul is saved from it.
You can shake that bush all you want, but there is no such thing as eternal punishment. And the penal substitution theory is a fallacy for which no argument is necessary, except that of arguing for it from a position of ignorance.
And, it is plain to see that you do not know the meaning of forgiveness.
Again, you can't make any intelligent argument to support your views so you just go 'No. I won't believe it and you can't make me.' And you basically just admitted that you can't make an intelligent argument by dismissing the need to make an argument. You just declare what you believe to be true and that those who believe the Bible are ignorant.
Jesus paid a ransom price for the release of mankind from the penalty of sin. That he paid a ransom is his own statement to that effect in Mark 10:45. He gave His life on the cross. That is, He died on the cross to pay the ransom price for the release of mankind from the penalty for sin. That's substitution and goes hand in hand with the fact that in the same context, in the same verse, the Greek preposition ἀντὶ, which means 'in place of,' 'instead of,' is used.
You don't have the ability to make an argument to defend your views and are just wasting people's time by constantly going 'Nuh uh.' And you simply don't merit any further attention.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-19-2018 at 08:59 AM..
Mike, yes, there is eternal separation. The soul that sinneth will NEVER enter the kingdom. What you don't get is this..the punishment is ALWAYS there, the Lake of Fire is eternal, they will stand outside the kingdom and weep and this will go on forever UNTIL God rescues them. This is what is meant by eternal punishment, the punishment is always there for someone to partake in if they choose. The old self, the Saul is destroyed by it. The new man, Paul is saved from it.
Don't tell me what I ''don't get.'' And that is not what eternal punishment means. The lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels as per Matthew 25:41. It is also the place where those who have rejected God's offer of salvation will spend the eternal future. No where does the Bible say that those whose names are not in the book of life will ever be released from the lake of fire.
Don't tell me what I ''don't get.'' And that is not what eternal punishment means. The lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels as per Matthew 25:41. It is also the place where those who have rejected God's offer of salvation will spend the eternal future. No where does the Bible say that those whose names are not in the book of life will ever be released from the lake of fire.
Can you not take a figurative step towards objectivity and see how truly silly the above is?
You can shake that bush all you want, but there is no such thing as eternal punishment. And the penal substitution theory is a fallacy for which no argument is necessary, except that of arguing for it from a position of ignorance.
And, it is plain to see that you do not know the meaning of forgiveness.
I would agree, eternal punishment is about the outcome of a resurrection when there are 3 outcomes and although you have been saved, yours is the least of the 3 outcomes and there are few who make it into the higher ZOE kingdom, I don't expect to make it there, but when people are escorted out of the Zoe kingdom, they aren't tossed into eternal punishment, they are tossed to a lower kingdom where there is still salvation and life, but thst they saw the higher kingdom and the higher resurrection the few obtained and they did not, it is then they weep and gnash they teeth but not in a burning hell, and not for physical torment, they weep because they now know the design of the kingdom, and they could have been more but they never knew it was a race. We are shown where the works of all men are tested in fire, and not one person shall escape that fire, but some will stand in the flames and not burn, and where there are those who burn, it still shows us their salvation.
I would agree, eternal punishment is about the outcome of a resurrection when there are 3 outcomes and although you have been saved, yours is the least of the 3 outcomes and there are few who make it into the higher ZOE kingdom, I don't expect to make it there, but when people are escorted out of the Zoe kingdom, they aren't tossed into eternal punishment, they are tossed to a lower kingdom where there is still salvation and life, but thst they saw the higher kingdom and the higher resurrection the few obtained and they did not, it is then they weep and gnash they teeth but not in a burning hell, and not for physical torment, they weep because they now know the design of the kingdom, and they could have been more but they never knew it was a race. We are shown where the works of all men are tested in fire, and not one person shall escape that fire, but some will stand in the flames and not burn, and where there are those who burn, it still shows us their salvation.
I know you won’t agree so I’m just sharing to share ... I see all of that pertaining to the here and now, not an afterlife.
You can shake that bush all you want, but there is no such thing as eternal punishment. And the penal substitution theory is a fallacy for which no argument is necessary, except that of arguing for it from a position of ignorance.
And, it is plain to see that you do not know the meaning of forgiveness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Again, you can't make any intelligent argument to support your views so you just go 'No. I won't believe it and you can't make me.' And you basically just admitted that you can't make an intelligent argument by dismissing the need to make an argument. You just declare what you believe to be true and that those who believe the Bible are ignorant.
Jesus paid a ransom price for the release of mankind from the penalty of sin. That he paid a ransom is his own statement to that effect in Mark 10:45. He gave His life on the cross. That is, He died on the cross to pay the ransom price for the release of mankind from the penalty for sin. That's substitution and goes hand in hand with the fact that in the same context, in the same verse, the Greek preposition ἀντὶ, which means 'in place of,' 'instead of,' is used.
You don't have the ability to make an argument to defend your views and are just wasting people's time by constantly going 'Nuh uh.' And you simply don't merit any further attention.
I probably had more education in my twenties and thirties, than you have in your entire life (mid-sixties?). And I have studied the Scriptures for almost a half century, including the various languages. If I were to expound on things your demeanor and position wouldn't change? You believe you have all the answers, so it is I that won't waste his time arguing with ignorant people. You can live in the land of fables, shaking that bush, but there is nothing in the Scriptures that supports Eternal Punishment or that of a Penal Substitution theory!
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... I see all of that pertaining to the here and now, not an afterlife.
