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Old 10-22-2018, 06:25 PM
 
90 posts, read 32,162 times
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At the moment you were born-again …
you were only forgiven of the sins you had committed up to that point in time!

“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,
and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call
and election sure, for IF you do these things you will never stumble;
for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:9-11, NKJV)
“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NASB)
“FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.(2 Peter 1:9, NIV)
“PAST sins” is also in the HCSB

Now for some confirming NT passages …

Paul wrote this to the Corinthian church concerning his words of rebuke
in 1 Corinthians that he had sent to them concerning some particular sin(s).
They really needed to be sorrowful and repent.

“… the pain (from his rebuke) caused you to repent and change your ways.
It was the kind of sorrow God wants His people to have, so you were not
harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience
leads us away from sin and results in salvation. … worldly sorrow, which lacks
repentance, results in spiritual (eternal) death.” (2 Corinthians 7:8-10, NLT)

“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence.
And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins.
You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality,
and eagerness for lustful pleasure.(2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)

Peter is warning believers about God’s destruction of all ungodly and unholy people:
“Then he used the water to destroy the ancient (ungodly) world … the day of judgment,
when ungodly people will be destroyed. … He is being patient for your sake. He does not
want anyone to be destroyed (perish spiritually), but (he) wants everyone to repent.
… what holy and godly lives you should live … (you) make every effort to be found living
peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. … I am warning you ahead of time
… Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors …” (2 Peter 3:6-17, NLT)

John gives the condition for the Lord to forgive believers’ present sins:
“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9, NLT)
This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all
unrighteousness – from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them
… We must also confess them with our actions … (John) is talking here about repentance
… we must hate our sins and turn from them. This is true repentance.
(The Applied New Testament Commentary; Dr. Thomas Hale)

2 verses later, John reminds believers to ask Jesus to plead our case before the Father:
“My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before
the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.” (1 John 2:1, NLT)

Believers are responsible for repenting of their sins after they are born-again!
They have been given the Holy Spirit, a totally new nature, and God’s word.
So, they have been enabled to be victorious overcomers over sin, the world,
and the devil. They have no excuse for failing to do this.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,844 posts, read 4,979,806 times
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There is a thread about being born again. You begin this post saying,'' At the moment you were born again.'' I don't know any Christians who are born again, Paul was always angry and perplexed with his own churches because Christ had yet to be formed in them and that is with him teaching them personally.

A mature son of God is not just planted inside you, there is a small seed planted that you have to raise through study. You have to read, and read and read in giving your child the milk of the word until he can eat the meat of the word that Christ is finaly formed in them where they can say that they are born again.

God demands that a woman should give birth to a fully grown matured man and you don't just say,'' Jesus, Jesus,'' and suddenly you know everything, that suddenly you are a mature Christian who has become a rabbi, it takes study, and a birn again Christian is a rabbi, the firstfruits are the birn again, and all of them priests, but one cannot become a priest of the religion of God ignorant of the ways and laws of God.

All those labor pains talked about in the bible is just that. You raise a child in the milk of the word but you take the meat of the word away, and he will always remain a baby. Paul told his own people that they were not even children of Christ but they were his children until one day Christ could be formed, and even after Christ is formed as a child, you are still not born again until you walk in the feasts, mainly, the wheat harvest where one is being born again, but Christians who reject the knowledge of the missions of Christ, they can never eat the meat of the word to mature because those feasts are the meat of the word made for eating meat. Those feasts teach us how to die daily in a Passover lifestyle, and that is just one feast amongst 7. A person needs to be willing to study the missions of Messiah if he really wants to mature in order to be born again.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:54 PM
 
90 posts, read 32,162 times
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Hannibal,

1 Cor 5:17 says believers have been made into new creations.

This is explained by:
1st birth is physical --- the old original creation --- born originally
2nd birth is spiritual --- a brand new creation --- born again

Billy Graham on TV said he didn't know he had been born again until 6 months had passed.
Ditto for me --- 6 months!
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,844 posts, read 4,979,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZacharyB View Post
Hannibal,

1 Cor 5:17 says believers have been made into new creations.

This is explained by:
1st birth is physical --- the old original creation --- born originally
2nd birth is spiritual --- a brand new creation --- born again

Billy Graham on TV said he didn't know he had been born again until 6 months had passed.
Ditto for me --- 6 months!
That is not how pregnancy works, being a baby of Paul is not being born again. Once a person matures the seed implanted in him, he is born again, and that creature is caught up to heaven to sit in heavenly places, but just saying Jesus is neither here nor there. We are given SO MUCH scripture about this child of God and how he becomes born again, that there can be no doubt that born again does not happen over night. You look at Revelation 12, and this is detailing people who are pregnant and who will eventually be born again, and THESE are people who KEEP THE COMMANMDMENTS OF GOD, and who have the testimony of Jesus, and how Satan was going to go after others who were also to be born again...

This isn't a subject where we are left in the dark, Paul is speaking about raising a child to maturity over and over and so is Jesus.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:20 PM
 
40,090 posts, read 26,755,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZacharyB View Post
Hannibal,

1 Cor 5:17 says believers have been made into new creations.

This is explained by:
1st birth is physical --- the old original creation --- born originally
2nd birth is spiritual --- a brand new creation --- born again

Billy Graham on TV said he didn't know he had been born again until 6 months had passed.
Ditto for me --- 6 months!
Sorry, what you experienced is the insemination (Conception) from God of your embryo Spirit, NOT a birth. Jesus is talking about what we will be baptized into at death as He was. What did He mean by the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Luke 12:50 (New King James Version)

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!

The baptism Jesus was to be baptized with was death and rebirth as Spirit (Holy Spirit). His consciousness is the ONLY human one that actually contained the complete Holy Spirit of God (Identical mind of God) and He could thereby make it available to the rest of us as the Comforter and guide within the collective human consciousness.

This is the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus brought to us - to be reborn after death as Spirit.

Romans 6:4 (King James Version)

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so, we also should walk in newness of life.

The passages suggest that we will be born again after our death as a Spirit because we obviously cannot be a Spirit while still in our mortal body. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies. This is contrary to the beliefs of those many “born again” Christians who think they are “born again” while still alive in their mortal body.

The confusion stems from an improper understanding of the phrase translated as born again (gennaō anothen) in the verses above. It actually means conceived or begotten from above, from a higher place, of things that come from heaven or God. It does not mean an actual birth. The phrase “born again” can be made clearer by understanding the phrase it most resembles “born of God” (gennaō ek theos "begotten of God") which means "to be conceived by God" as a spiritual embryo.

Embryos must mature sufficiently to actually be born. It is our actions in "love of God and each other" through our lives that achieve that spiritual maturation and determines what we have "built upon the foundation of Jesus"(wood, hay, stubble or gold, silver, etc.)This is what those who call themselves "born again" while still in the flesh are actually referring to.

This after death concept is reinforced in :

1 Corinthians 15:36:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.

1 Corinthians 15: 42-45

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,964 posts, read 22,131,923 times
Reputation: 10705
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZacharyB View Post
At the moment you were born-again …
you were only forgiven of the sins you had committed up to that point in time!
Well, duh. You can't very well be forgiven of a sin your haven't committed.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:44 PM
 
9,280 posts, read 3,154,533 times
Reputation: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sorry, what you experienced is the insemination (Conception) from God of your embryo Spirit, NOT a birth. Jesus is talking about what we will be baptized into at death as He was. What did He mean by the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Luke 12:50 (New King James Version)

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!

The baptism Jesus was to be baptized with was death and rebirth as Spirit (Holy Spirit). His consciousness is the ONLY human one that actually contained the complete Holy Spirit of God (Identical mind of God) and He could thereby make it available to the rest of us as the Comforter and guide within the collective human consciousness.

This is the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus brought to us - to be reborn after death as Spirit.

Romans 6:4 (King James Version)

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so, we also should walk in newness of life.

The passages suggest that we will be born again after our death as a Spirit because we obviously cannot be a Spirit while still in our mortal body. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies. This is contrary to the beliefs of those many “born again” Christians who think they are “born again” while still alive in their mortal body.

The confusion stems from an improper understanding of the phrase translated as born again (gennaō anothen) in the verses above. It actually means conceived or begotten from above, from a higher place, of things that come from heaven or God. It does not mean an actual birth. The phrase “born again” can be made clearer by understanding the phrase it most resembles “born of God” (gennaō ek theos "begotten of God") which means "to be conceived by God" as a spiritual embryo.

Embryos must mature sufficiently to actually be born. It is our actions in "love of God and each other" through our lives that achieve that spiritual maturation and determines what we have "built upon the foundation of Jesus"(wood, hay, stubble or gold, silver, etc.)This is what those who call themselves "born again" while still in the flesh are actually referring to.

This after death concept is reinforced in :

1 Corinthians 15:36:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.

1 Corinthians 15: 42-45

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

We were ALREADY dead in sins and trespasses. If we have to die physically to be "born again", then what advantage is there to be alive and know Him? We might as well all kick the bucket now. Geez, such a twisting of scriptures.....
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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What is written is spoken to Gentiles who were adopted under the promise made to Ephraim, and is just not what Christians are today. The written covenant in Jeremiah 31 is not written to Gentiles, the covenant is specific to Ephraim and Judah and only Ephraim and Judah. Now there are Christians who assume that the NT was written to them when it was in fact written to Gentiles who were adopted and grafted into Israel under the promise of Hosea 2. Hosea is a book written about the ten lost tribes and how God took them and he seeded them as REAL seeds that one day Gentiles of the world would come repenting of their paganism that killed the ten lost tribes.

Those first Gentiles repented of their paganism and their lawlesness to then convert to the religion of the Jews to become as co heirs with Jews in filling the void made in the loss of the ten lost tribes. Hosea 2 promises a marriage to Gentiles, NOT JEWS.

Jesus didn't come offering a betrothal to redeem Jews into Israel to become one with Jews, Jews WERE Jews, Jews WERE Israel, and so the friend of the bridegroom came seeking submissive virgins.

These virgins betrothed to a Jew were to somehow become pregnant with a seed to raise a son through the conversion and through the study of the religion of God, something Christians cannot do because they refuse to do...

These Gentiles joined Jews by accepting the same worship system or it would simply not work, a Gentile continuing in his paganism couldn't possibly be joined to Israel because of the fact that what you keep defines you, and Jews would never ever be able to see a pagan as one of their own, it would never happen because it canmot happen and didn't happen.

Those first Gentiles who converted to the religion of Jesus were on their way to being born again.

All those things written in the New Testament was written to Gentiles who took hold of God's covenant and who joined the Jews, I don't see Christians doing the same today. Gentiles stopped coming under the covenant made for Ephraim and Judah the day they went back to their paganism out of hatred for Jews after the Jewish war.

If somebody really thinks they are under the new covenant made for Ephraim and Judah, they should go and read Ezekiel 37 to see that covenant revealed and exactly who is in that covenant and by no stretch of the imagination can a Gentile be found amongst Ephraim and Judah in Ezekiel 37..

The whole point is being adopted, grafted and married to Judah, and after this comes born again after much study.

As it is, I am always speaking to Christians who aren't in the same Christianity as those first Christians, those first Christians loved the law, and they stopped all their paganism to follow a Passover lamb. No matter if they didn't keep any law of any feast or Sabbath, they were not keeping pagan holy days. They were not committing adultery against their bridegroom when all the holy days were appointed for the bride and how she was to raise, mature and give birth to a child. How is a Christian to become born again if he is committing adultery?

All the holy days of the fall teach us of a consummation, birth and circumcision of that born again man, only, it has to be your religion to understand. Are you really in the same religion as Jesus?
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:52 PM
 
40,090 posts, read 26,755,929 times
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Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
We were ALREADY dead in sins and trespasses. If we have to die physically to be "born again", then what advantage is there to be alive and know Him? We might as well all kick the bucket now. Geez, such a twisting of scriptures.....
What are you using as your basis for believing that a birth can occur without a pregnancy period for the embryo to develop, whether Flesh OR Spirit???? Why do you think we are told that what we sow must die before it is quickened into a new life???? You believers in magic ignore the very foundations of our reality and its processes at your peril.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,964 posts, read 22,131,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What are you using as your basis for believing that a birth can occur without a pregnancy period for the embryo to develop, whether Flesh OR Spirit???? Why do you think we are told that what we sow must die before it is quickened into a new life???? You believers in magic ignore the very foundations of our reality and its processes at your peril.
You've got to explain something to me, Mystic. What is your basis for believing that a spirit cannot develop to maturity without a pregnancy being involved? Or maybe you meant something entirely different than what it sounded like.

Last edited by Katzpur; 10-22-2018 at 08:08 PM..
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