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Old 12-24-2018, 07:24 AM
 
21,949 posts, read 16,738,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I wasn't referring to the apostles, and you know that.
It was the apostles, and close associates of the apostles, who wrote the New Testament which contain the teachings that you reject, such as the ones I listed in post #272. I'll repeat the list.
Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins?

Do you believe that you must place your faith in Jesus in order to be saved from the lake of fire?

Do you believe that Jesus is God as the Bible says?

Do you believe that Jesus was physically and bodily resurrected on the third day after His crucifixion?

Do you believe that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord who is at the right hand of the Father in heaven? And I'm talking about physical death.

Do you believe that the believer is going to be physically and bodily resurrected?

Do you believe that Jesus is going to physically return to the earth and establish His kingdom on the earth?

These are examples of apostolic teachings. To the extent that a person doesn't believe these and other teachings, that person rejects the apostolic teachings.
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Old 12-24-2018, 07:47 AM
 
30 posts, read 4,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
I mean, is there something others just do not understand, but you think you do?...
I think there are many things most who are pro-Bible don't understand. One of those things I find particularly interesting is the belief that Jesus Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin. The Law of God prevented anyone dying in the stead of another (Deut 24:16; Eze 18:4, 13, 20). Yes one can find Scripture that says He died "for our sins (1 Cor 15:3)", but that is not the same as paying the price of sins. It's best translated "because" as in the case of a mother crying "for" her children, she's not crying in their stead but because of them. There are other reasons I don't believe Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin, but the Law in and of itself forbids it.
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Old 12-24-2018, 08:40 AM
 
21,949 posts, read 16,738,510 times
Reputation: 8759
Quote:
Originally Posted by brndnms View Post
I think there are many things most who are pro-Bible don't understand. One of those things I find particularly interesting is the belief that Jesus Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin. The Law of God prevented anyone dying in the stead of another (Deut 24:16; Eze 18:4, 13, 20). Yes one can find Scripture that says He died "for our sins (1 Cor 15:3)", but that is not the same as paying the price of sins. It's best translated "because" as in the case of a mother crying "for" her children, she's not crying in their stead but because of them. There are other reasons I don't believe Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin, but the Law in and of itself forbids it.
People who use that argument ignore the fact that Isaiah 53 is all about someone dying for the sins of others (dying in their place, rendering himself as a quilt offering). Jewish rabbi's have had different opinions on whether Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, or to an individual, including the Messiah regardless of who the Messiah is thought to be by the rabbi in question.

The Old Testament Levitical animal sacrifices were all about substitutionary sacrifice which as the writer of the book of Hebrews recognized (Hebrews chapters 9-10), pointed to Jesus who redeemed (paid the price) for our sins (Ephesians 1:7;Colossians 1:14). The redemption price was His blood (Ephesians 1:7; Revelation 5:9) which actually is a metaphor for His spiritual death on the cross.

Last edited by Mike555; 12-24-2018 at 08:53 AM..
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Old 12-24-2018, 08:54 AM
Status: "Waving a sign that reads John 3:16" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,390 posts, read 8,921,820 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by brndnms View Post
I think there are many things most who are pro-Bible don't understand. One of those things I find particularly interesting is the belief that Jesus Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin. The Law of God prevented anyone dying in the stead of another (Deut 24:16; Eze 18:4, 13, 20). Yes one can find Scripture that says He died "for our sins (1 Cor 15:3)", but that is not the same as paying the price of sins. It's best translated "because" as in the case of a mother crying "for" her children, she's not crying in their stead but because of them. There are other reasons I don't believe Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin, but the Law in and of itself forbids it.
You would have a point if Jesus was just a man. However, He was Immanuel, God with us.
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Old 12-24-2018, 08:57 AM
 
Location: New England
32,302 posts, read 21,149,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
You would have a point if Jesus was just a man. However, He was Immanuel, God with us.
The man Christ Jesus.
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:02 AM
 
20,447 posts, read 9,856,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Which is the other gospel? The one that supports ... Satan, hell, and eternal damnation?
Or, that which says, "He was sent to be the Savior of the world," meaning ALL humanity.

Your worship of the Penal Substitution theory and eternal damnation is based on a mistaken belief.
Simply put, what you follow is the syncretstic beliefs of those who have fallen away from the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
So you claim, without any evidence to back it. And empty assertions deserve no attention. And the apostles did not fall away from the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I wasn't referring to the apostles, and you know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It was the apostles, and close associates of the apostles, who wrote the New Testament which contain the teachings that you reject, such as the ones I listed in post #272. I'll repeat the list.
Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins?

Do you believe that you must place your faith in Jesus in order to be saved from the lake of fire?

Do you believe that Jesus is God as the Bible says?

Do you believe that Jesus was physically and bodily resurrected on the third day after His crucifixion?

Do you believe that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord who is at the right hand of the Father in heaven? And I'm talking about physical death.

Do you believe that the believer is going to be physically and bodily resurrected?

Do you believe that Jesus is going to physically return to the earth and establish His kingdom on the earth?

These are examples of apostolic teachings. To the extent that a person doesn't believe these and other teachings, that person rejects the apostolic teachings.
The associates you refer to are non-other than those of Catholicism. Whether you call them the apostolic teachings' is irrelevant. What they amount to is the creeds of men that have added to, or taken away from the truth. Which began in the early Church, even before all the original Apostles had died. But you can believe whatever it is you believe.
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:16 AM
 
20,447 posts, read 9,856,466 times
Reputation: 1681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
I mean, is there something others just do not understand, but you think you do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by brndnms View Post
I think there are many things most who are pro-Bible don't understand. One of those things I find particularly interesting is the belief that Jesus Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin. The Law of God prevented anyone dying in the stead of another (Deut 24:16; Eze 18:4, 13, 20). Yes one can find Scripture that says He died "for our sins (1 Cor 15:3)", but that is not the same as paying the price of sins. It's best translated "because" as in the case of a mother crying "for" her children, she's not crying in their stead but because of them. There are other reasons I don't believe Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin, but the Law in and of itself forbids it.
He died because of their sin, is correct. But they need their blood sacrifice (whipping boy) and pound of flesh.
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Old 12-24-2018, 11:11 AM
 
21,949 posts, read 16,738,510 times
Reputation: 8759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The associates you refer to are non-other than those of Catholicism. Whether you call them the apostolic teachings' is irrelevant. What they amount to is the creeds of men that have added to, or taken away from the truth. Which began in the early Church, even before all the original Apostles had died. But you can believe whatever it is you believe.
Catholicism is not Roman Catholicism. The word catholic simply means 'universal.' The universal or catholic church is the body of Christ of which all believers are a part. Roman Catholicism on the other hand is a theological system which developed over time out of the church at Rome

The apostolic teachings are the teachings of the apostles who were chosen by Jesus and whose teachings, despite your claim, and in the words of the apostle Paul, are not the word of men, but the word of God.
1 Thesalonians 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
The close associates of the apostles of whom I spoke are Luke who was a close associate of Paul, and Mark who was a close associate of Peter. Jude, assuming him to be the Jude who was Jesus' brother was of course a close associate of the apostles.

I am well aware that certain heresies began to appear in the early first century church and were warned against by the apostles. The apostolic teachings are a safeguard against the heretical teachings of false teachers.
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:45 PM
Status: "Waving a sign that reads John 3:16" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,390 posts, read 8,921,820 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by brndnms View Post
I think there are many things most who are pro-Bible don't understand. One of those things I find particularly interesting is the belief that Jesus Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin. The Law of God prevented anyone dying in the stead of another (Deut 24:16; Eze 18:4, 13, 20). Yes one can find Scripture that says He died "for our sins (1 Cor 15:3)", but that is not the same as paying the price of sins. It's best translated "because" as in the case of a mother crying "for" her children, she's not crying in their stead but because of them. There are other reasons I don't believe Christ died to pay the price of anyone's sin, but the Law in and of itself forbids it.
Unfortunately for you, Jesus refuted your theology when He told the 12 the wine represented His blood, shed for the forgiveness of sins.

Matt. 26:28
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Old 12-24-2018, 01:04 PM
 
21,949 posts, read 16,738,510 times
Reputation: 8759
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Unfortunately for you, Jesus refuted your theology when He told the 12 the wine represented His blood, shed for the forgiveness of sins.

Matt. 26:28
This is true. The Bible plainly shows that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose of dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins.
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