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Old 12-24-2018, 01:59 PM
 
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The Bible plainly shows that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose of dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins.
jesus committed suicide.
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Old 12-24-2018, 02:17 PM
 
20,461 posts, read 9,870,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The associates you refer to are non-other than those of Catholicism. Whether you call them the apostolic teachings' is irrelevant. What they amount to is the creeds of men that have added to, or taken away from the truth. Which began in the early Church, even before all the original Apostles had died. But you can believe whatever it is you believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Catholicism is not Roman Catholicism. The word catholic simply means 'universal.' The universal or catholic church is the body of Christ of which all believers are a part. Roman Catholicism on the other hand is a theological system which developed over time out of the church at Rome

The apostolic teachings are the teachings of the apostles who were chosen by Jesus and whose teachings, despite your claim, and in the words of the apostle Paul, are not the word of men, but the word of God.
1 Thesalonians 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
The close associates of the apostles of whom I spoke are Luke who was a close associate of Paul, and Mark who was a close associate of Peter. Jude, assuming him to be the Jude who was Jesus' brother was of course a close associate of the apostles.

I am well aware that certain heresies began to appear in the early first century church and were warned against by the apostles. The apostolic teachings are a safeguard against the heretical teachings of false teachers.
Well, at least you admit that there are false teachers, although much of what you believe and expound on falls under that category. I know you will never confess to it, so there is really no reason to refute you, other than to say that your theology of God's wrath and the Penal Substitution theory is bogus. But again, you can believe whatever it is you believe.
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Old 12-24-2018, 02:30 PM
 
20,461 posts, read 9,870,635 times
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Quote:
The Bible plainly shows that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose of dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins.

Forgiveness is about releasing you from a debt; not collecting a payment for it from someone else.
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Old 12-24-2018, 02:35 PM
Status: "Watching America made small." (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,967 posts, read 13,487,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This is true. The Bible plainly shows that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose of dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins.
The LOTR plainly states that Frodo had to destroy the One Ring in the fires of Mordor for Middle Earth to be saved.

I don't believe that was true either. But both are good stories.
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,546 posts, read 12,211,703 times
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Forgiveness is about releasing you from a debt;
not collecting a payment for it from someone else.
Umm, that's quite profound.
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:30 PM
 
30 posts, read 4,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
People who use that argument ignore the fact that Isaiah 53 is all about someone dying for the sins of others (dying in their place, rendering himself as a quilt offering). Jewish rabbi's have had different opinions on whether Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, or to an individual, including the Messiah regardless of who the Messiah is thought to be by the rabbi in question.
Isaiah 53 is no different. It's about Christ dying because of His people's sins. It doesn't say He was to die to pay the price of those sins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Old Testament Levitical animal sacrifices were all about substitutionary sacrifice which as the writer of the book of Hebrews recognized (Hebrews chapters 9-10), pointed to Jesus who redeemed (paid the price) for our sins (. The redemption price was His blood () which actually is a metaphor for His spiritual death on the cross.
Actually, only certain sins required the death penalty. Many did not and required only restitution ( Ex 22), yet animal sacrifice was still required (Lev 4 & 5). There were exceptions to animal sacrifice (Lev 5:11-12). For those who had not committed a sin unto death (1 John 5:16-17) there would be no need for anyone to die to pay his penalty. Only certain sins required the death penalty and the sacrifice would be the life of the guilty. The Law of God still required the guilty to pay for his sin and forbade it being paid by guiltless person (Eze 18:4-9).
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:32 PM
 
5,199 posts, read 2,548,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
The LOTR plainly states that Frodo had to destroy the One Ring in the fires of Mordor for Middle Earth to be saved.
I don't believe that was true either. But both are good stories.
Years ago by chance we came across a cartoon Middle Earth movie version while driving through another town.
I found it to be an interesting version, and in the end when the ring was tossed into the fires of Modor then Earth became a beautiful paradisical place as described in Scripture. So, there could have been some scriptural influence there.
Middle Earth being a good story does Not have to mean Scripture is Not a true story, but just influenced by Scripture.
Since most people want Peace on Earth then it seems odd to me there is Not more Peace on Earth.
Lack of Peace on Earth is not a good story, and bad international news is being reported daily.
To me the lack of Peace on Earth is because man dominate man to man's injury or man's hurt.
Since it is obvious that man can't establish Peace on Earth, then mankind needs outside help.
As helper, Jesus does Not toss any rings into any fire, but rather the executional words from Jesus' mouth will destroy the wicked as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16, otherwise there is No real hope for humanity today.
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:32 PM
 
30 posts, read 4,560 times
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Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Unfortunately for you, Jesus refuted your theology when He told the 12 the wine represented His blood, shed for the forgiveness of sins. Matt. 26:28
The answer lies within the verse you gave:

KJV Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

As you see this "remission of sins" depends on the instituting of the New Covenant. God gave the House of Israel a written bill of divorcement (Jer 3:8). He also gave the House of Judah, that was sold into Assyrian captivity a bill of divorcement (Isa 50:1). The written bills of divorcement are in Hosea 1. So most of Israel had been divorced by God and could not come back into a covenantal or marriage relationship with God because they were defiled (Deut 24:4). They were outside the Covenant of God with no way to get back in. That's why Christ came. To redeem His people (Mat 1:21; Luke 1:68).

What Christ did was to create a new covenant that allowed His people to be cleansed (Acts 10:15; 11:9; 1 John 1:7-9). This would allow God to remarry His people as He had promised (Hosea 2:19-20). So what you have nailed to the cross were the divorce decrees God gave
the House of Israel and most of the House of Judah. These were the things that were contrary to God's people and against them.

Therefore Christ's blood was, indeed shed because of the remission of sins because with the advent of the New Covenant, these people were now able to have their sins forgiven by following God's Law on forgiveness. Christ didn't pay for their sins else there would be nothing for them to do (Acts 2:38).
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:37 PM
 
961 posts, read 148,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Unfortunately for you, Jesus refuted your theology when He told the 12 the wine represented His blood, shed for the forgiveness of sins.

Matt. 26:28
No. It was a smokescreen for those who do not believe and walk in His footsteps.
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:39 PM
 
961 posts, read 148,341 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This is true. The Bible plainly shows that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose of dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins.
No. It is twisted by non believers and those who will not accept the son of man and God's word.
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