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Old 12-25-2018, 09:51 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,225 posts, read 650,871 times
Reputation: 449

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
If someone tells you that he/she has something figured out about the Bible that no one else has figured out in the past 2000 years, don't believe them. They're very likely wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
I've never claimed to. There are plenty of things that we can disagree about in good conscience. But there are lots of things that God has clearly defined in the Bible.
BUT when does this happen?

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to tell you, but you are not able to bear now.
Joh 16:13 But when that One comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you.
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Old 12-25-2018, 09:59 PM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,094,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
I've never claimed to. There are plenty of things that we can disagree about in good conscience. But there are lots of things that God has clearly defined in the Bible.
Are you saying you don't have it all worked out ? Simple yes or no wil work
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Old 12-25-2018, 10:09 PM
 
936 posts, read 143,667 times
Reputation: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
BUT when does this happen?

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to tell you, but you are not able to bear now.
Joh 16:13 But when that One comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you.
"He will glorify me because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. " (Jesus)

And didn't Jesus say that His followers would do just that in John 17?

I am the spirit of truth. Jesus was/is the spirit of truth. All the prophets were/are the spirit of truth!!!
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Old 12-25-2018, 10:46 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,225 posts, read 650,871 times
Reputation: 449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free4you View Post
"He will glorify me because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. " (Jesus)

And didn't Jesus say that His followers would do just that in John 17?

I am the spirit of truth. Jesus was/is the spirit of truth. All the prophets were/are the spirit of truth!!!
Nope, individually prophets are men
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Old 12-25-2018, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,352 posts, read 12,114,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
John 16:12 I have yet many things to tell you, but you are not able to bear now.
One of my favorite verses....very profound....many layers there.
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Old 12-25-2018, 11:29 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,225 posts, read 650,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
One of my favorite verses....very profound....many layers there.
Thatís what I see in the scriptures.... many layers
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Old 12-26-2018, 05:59 AM
 
177 posts, read 37,165 times
Reputation: 61
It's not that I see things others don't see. It's that too many others see things that aren't there.
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Old 12-26-2018, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,352 posts, read 12,114,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nerfball View Post
it's not that i see things others don't see. It's that too many others see things that aren't there.
Lol...
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Old 12-26-2018, 09:04 AM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,094,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
Thatís what I see in the scriptures.... many layers
Yes, grave clothes, and when they are peeled back we come out of a deep sleep to awakening into his likeness, our true idenity. Lazarus come forth!
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Old 12-26-2018, 10:25 AM
 
30 posts, read 4,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Also, I find at 1st John 1:7 B that Jesus' shed blood cleanses all, however Not all will end up accepting Jesus. That is why Matthew 20:28 says that Jesus' ransom covers 'MANY' and does Not say everyone. The wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalm 92:7.
Jesus only comes to the rescue of those wanting to be righteous upright humble people - Psalm 72:8; Psalm 72:12-14.
Who can come to Christ? Only those the Father "drags" to Him (John 6:44). Who can come to the Father? Only those that come to Him through Christ (John 14:6). Who adds people to the "ecclessia" or "called out ones?" The Lord (Acts 2:47). Who only can be a part of this adding? Those on whom God has mercy and compassion (Rom 9:15). Does a person's own personal desire have anything to do with whom God chooses? No (Rom 9:16)! This is why Christ said His followers did not choose Him, but He chose them (John 15:16). Therefore if there are people, as you say "wanting to be righteous upright humble people" it has nothing to do with their "will" as to whether they will be chosen, but God's will. Just as Paul acknowledged (2 Cor 1:1)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Do you not understand what redemption means?
Of course I know. It means to "buy back."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus redeemed us from the penalty of sin by paying the purchase price with His death on the cross.
Why would He have to do that when the Old Covenant (OC) was perfectly capable of rendering forgiveness (Lev 4 & 5)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And Isaiah 53 states that the suffering servant, which is Jesus, interceded for the transgressors, bearing the sin of many, rendering Himself as a guilt offering. All of this has to do with Jesus dying for, not merely 'because' of our sins. He came into the world to go to the cross for the purpose of paying the penalty for our sins. He died in our place as our substitute.
What Isaiah 53 does not say is "Christ died to pay the price" of anyone's sin. As stated above, unless the sin was a sin unto death, the sinner could get forgiveness under the OC. Even under the New Covenant sins unto death existed (1 John 5:16).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And again, the animal sacrifices were types or pictures of the death of Christ on the cross.
Why would an animal have to die if the sin is not unto death? And if blood shed was necessary for just any sin, why was a non-blood sacrifice acceptable (Lev 5:11)?

If Christ died to pay the price of someone else's sin He would have broken God's Law and would have become a sinner Himself (Deut 24:16).

Lets analyze this supposition of substitutional death. Did Christ not say before He died He had the power to forgive sins (Mar 2:5-10)? Before Christ died, did He not pronounce sins forgiven (Mat 9:5; Mar 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48)? Why didn't He have to die for those people to have their sins forgiven?

If Christ had to pay the price of His people's sins woudn't that mean they were sinners because they broke the Law of God (1 John 3:4)? Wouldn't Christ's ability to substitute for others be listed in the Law of God? Where is that listed? And wouldn't His death have to be in accordance with that same Law? Yet the Jews, themselves said it wasn't lawful for them to put Him to death even though they said He broke their Law via blasphemy (John 18:31; 19:7). So they conned the Romans into pronouncing the death penalty on Him (John 19). Christ was not tried via the Law of God.

There is no Scripture that says Christ died to pay the price for anyone's sin. If Christ had died to pay the price for anyone's, muchless everyone's, sin He would have made the Law of God of none effect, because the Law says a man can only die for His own sins (Deut 24:16). And making the Law of none effect is something He lambasted the Jews for doing (Mat 15:1-6). That would have made Him a hypocrite, which is what He called the Jews (Mat 23:13). The Law was designed to put evil out of Israel (Deut 17:2-7). Yet Christ, who was totally an innocent Lamb, would be dying for the evil person thereby leaving evil in and putting innocence out.

Another thing, most people do not consider is they think that their just desserts are either burning in hell forever or dying forever. But Christ did neither. If He did not die forever nor is in hell forever, how can He pay the price for anyone which is supposedly one of those fates?

As I understand it most people believe the death a person experiences due to sin is a spiritual death. Surely Christ didn't die spiritually, but physically. Also if His death paid the price for sin then there's nothing for His people to do. They can be as evil as their flesh desires and not have to pay the penalty for their sin because it is supposedly paid.

Of course He didn't legally die. His death was a murder and an affront to the Law. His death was "illegal" as per the Law. His death would have to have been legal to be able to die in anyone's stead since the Law required their deaths. How is being wrongly put to death pay the price of sin for anyone?

Of course He didn't legally die. His death was a murder and an affront to the Law. His death was "illegal" as per the Law. His death would have to have been legal to be able to die in anyone's stead since the Law required their deaths. But He died, not to pay the price of anyone's sin, but to redeem His people. He bought them back via His blood (Isa 52:3) by the institution of a new covenant. How could Christ's death pay the price for sins that have never been committed? How could His death pay the price of sins for anyone other than Himself?

Do you really think the kangaroo court that convicted Christ was carrying out the Law of God? If not then the death of Christ was not one of legitimacy. If it wasn't legitimate as per the Law of God then no one's sins are not directly affected by Christ's death. Do you not think your sins need to be forgiven within the framework of God's Law? Or do you think just any old murder of Christ, i.e., Christ being railroaded into death by His enemy suffices for your sins?

Was there a Godly court or otherwise held that placed the blame for your sins circa 2000 years in the future on Christ? And did that court pronounce Christ guilty for your sins? I don't think so!

The Bible is clear as to why Christ had to die:

Acts 5:31 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

In the above verse repentance and forgivness was given to Israel only after He was seated in the power of God. If the blood of Christ was simply the forgiveness of sins, then He did not have to sit down in the power of God and repentance would not have been required."
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