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Old 01-03-2019, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,355 posts, read 12,119,741 times
Reputation: 16598

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The spiritual death of Jesus does not mean that His spirit died. His spiritual death refers to the fact that while He was being judged for our sins He was judicially separated from the Father. During the time he was paying the penalty for our sins, the relationship between the Father and Jesus had to be broken. That's why Jesus cried out in fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, ''My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?

While Jesus is both fully God and fully man he did not die as God. Deity is not subject to death. He died spiritually, and once he had paid the penalty for our sins, he died physically. But since Jesus is also God, his spiritual death as a man (his separation from God) during the three hours he was being judged for our sins, had infinite value.
That is exactly what I used to believe...I thought I was very smart to understand
this convoluted explanation.
I was content believing that...I was not a bad person .

I do not recall ever telling anyone that was 'absolutely what happened,' tho...
I had that much humility and sense to know,
"How could I know that was exactly the way it went down?" Because that's what someone else said?
It seems a bit strange!

So, I researched; I wanted to know.
I found that John messaged to someone here many times; 1 thing he said was....'We were so far back and so much was happening in the crowd, we could not have possibly heard what Jesus said and He would never have said, Abba why have you abandoned me ....the Father was never absent from Jesus! That was added to the writings placed in your Bible.'
Paraphrase from memory.

Which rings true to you? 1.That our Father couldn't possibly have abandoned Jesus? It is not
even in His Nature? Or 2. He did!
Leaving Jesus bereft and alone in suffering?
Um, nope...our Father-God is 'no such Being'...this is not in Him.
He needed no one to suffer and die
for anyone else....never did, still doesn't...no man, nor goat, ever.

Am I a bad person going to hell realizing this...no....is anyone believing the opposite? No.
And this is 'what I think' ...is that exactly what happened ? I dunno that either, still.
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Old 01-03-2019, 08:37 AM
 
20,353 posts, read 9,819,192 times
Reputation: 1674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The spiritual death of Jesus does not mean that His spirit died. His spiritual death refers to the fact that while He was being judged for our sins He was judicially separated from the Father. During the time he was paying the penalty for our sins, the relationship between the Father and Jesus had to be broken. That's why Jesus cried out in fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, ''My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?

While Jesus is both fully God and fully man he did not die as God. Deity is not subject to death. He died spiritually, and once he had paid the penalty for our sins, he died physically. But since Jesus is also God, his spiritual death as a man (his separation from God) during the three hours he was being judged for our sins, had infinite value.

And no, Jesus' soul did not die. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. The soul does not cease to exist.
There was never any separation from God. And that penal substitution theory that you hold dear to your own heart merely maintains the pharisaical mindset of scapegoating; a lamb to be slain, crucifying the innocent - as the religious need their pound of flesh. But, while you’re at it, why not throw in that nonsensical thought of Hades as well (the mythical underworld of pain and suffering)?

Christ’s sacrifice was never to appease the demands of God – that in and of itself is a syncretistic Christian/Pagan concept. Apparently, you view love with suspicion, believing it will infringe upon your own sense of justice without mercy. Is that why you need an immortal soul? Christ Jesus either died and was resurrected or he didn't die and wasn't resurrected. Which is it?
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Old 01-03-2019, 09:32 AM
 
21,814 posts, read 16,678,731 times
Reputation: 8655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
That is exactly what I used to believe...I thought I was very smart to understand
this convoluted explanation.
I was content believing that...I was not a bad person .

I do not recall ever telling anyone that was 'absolutely what happened,' tho...
I had that much humility and sense to know,
"How could I know that was exactly the way it went down?" Because that's what someone else said?
It seems a bit strange!

So, I researched; I wanted to know.
I found that John messaged to someone here many times; 1 thing he said was....'We were so far back and so much was happening in the crowd, we could not have possibly heard what Jesus said and He would never have said, Abba why have you abandoned me ....the Father was never absent from Jesus! That was added to the writings placed in your Bible.'
Paraphrase from memory.

Which rings true to you? 1.That our Father couldn't possibly have abandoned Jesus? It is not
even in His Nature? Or 2. He did!
Leaving Jesus bereft and alone in suffering?
Um, nope...our Father-God is 'no such Being'...this is not in Him.
He needed no one to suffer and die
for anyone else....never did, still doesn't...no man, nor goat, ever.

Am I a bad person going to hell realizing this...no....is anyone believing the opposite? No.
And this is 'what I think' ...is that exactly what happened ? I dunno that either, still.
I thought you put me on ignore.

Jesus was very clear in quoting Psalm 22:1 that the Father forsook him during the three hours in which he bore our sins. It was a judicial action in which the Father judged Jesus for our sins. That was the nature of Jesus' spiritual death which he underwent on our behalf. Before being born again we are all spiritually dead (separated from God). This spiritual death is the death to which Paul referred in Ephesians 2:1 when he referred to his readers as once being dead in their trespasses. They were physically alive but they had once been spiritually dead. But having been born again they were now alive.

Because we are all spiritually separated from God before receiving Jesus as Savior, Jesus had to endure a period of being spiritually separated from the Father while being judged for our sins in order to die as our substitute.

As for Matthew 27:46 being a later addition to the Bible there is no basis for that claim.
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Old 01-03-2019, 12:09 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
That is exactly what I used to believe...I thought I was very smart to understand
this convoluted explanation.
I was content believing that...I was not a bad person .

I do not recall ever telling anyone that was 'absolutely what happened,' tho...
I had that much humility and sense to know,
"How could I know that was exactly the way it went down?" Because that's what someone else said?
It seems a bit strange!

So, I researched; I wanted to know.
I found that John messaged to someone here many times; 1 thing he said was....'We were so far back and so much was happening in the crowd, we could not have possibly heard what Jesus said and He would never have said, Abba why have you abandoned me ....the Father was never absent from Jesus! That was added to the writings placed in your Bible.'
Paraphrase from memory.

Which rings true to you? 1.That our Father couldn't possibly have abandoned Jesus? It is not even in His Nature? Or 2. He did!
Leaving Jesus bereft and alone in suffering?
Um, nope...our Father-God is 'no such Being'...this is not in Him.
He needed no one to suffer and die for anyone else....never did, still doesn't...no man, nor goat, ever.

Am I a bad person going to hell realizing this...no....is anyone believing the opposite? No.
And this is 'what I think' ...is that exactly what happened? I dunno that either, still.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
3,139 posts, read 937,194 times
Reputation: 1024
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
His soul died? What? Could you explain that one?
Jesus willingly gave up his life. Jesus did not do his own will, rather, he did the Father's will and was obedient unto death. Jesus died. He poured out his soul unto death. Jesus did suffer -- his soul suffered and his body. But I agree with you God never left him. He had the spiritual strength from his Father to give his life up in the manner fore-ordained. Would you be willing to give up your life for anything, particularly if our Heavenly Father asked you to? We should all be able to answer yes to that. We are not supposed to love our lives (in this world) and run from death when it is our time to die.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,355 posts, read 12,119,741 times
Reputation: 16598
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
He poured out his soul unto death. Jesus did suffer -- his soul suffered and his body. But I agree with you God never left him. He had the spiritual strength from his Father to give his life up in the manner fore-ordained.
Not disagreeing with you...but, I know that I do not know that Jesus suffered as any normal man would.
That is what most think, that's natural, no harm.
However, I dare say, there is a phrase most don't understand...it is
exquisitely paradoxical; that being--the Agony and the Ecstasy.
An agony so profoundly experienced by an enlightened, advanced being such as Jesus ...it
transforms into sheer ecstasy. Oh my. The depth almost unimaginable.
(I didn't exactly make this up...I was shown this inside, to my shock decades ago, as usual, my mouth dropped stunned.
And I will never forget.)


Greetings, Mystic, btw.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:20 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,227 posts, read 650,871 times
Reputation: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
Jesus willingly gave up his life. Jesus did not do his own will, rather, he did the Father's will and was obedient unto death. Jesus died. He poured out his soul unto death. Jesus did suffer -- his soul suffered and his body. But I agree with you God never left him. He had the spiritual strength from his Father to give his life up in the manner fore-ordained. Would you be willing to give up your life for anything, particularly if our Heavenly Father asked you to? We should all be able to answer yes to that. We are not supposed to love our lives (in this world) and run from death when it is our time to die.
Jesus may have gone willingly to slaughter but I don't believe it was God that required it, so who required it?

God requires mercy and not sacrifice
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,355 posts, read 12,119,741 times
Reputation: 16598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
Jesus may have gone willingly to slaughter but I don't believe it was God that required it, so who required it?
God requires mercy and not sacrifice
The times...and Jesus had to move on to His Father...
the mission was accomplished...and now the Holy Spirit could come to us.
..time to go.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:43 PM
 
Location: New England
32,222 posts, read 21,097,983 times
Reputation: 2274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
Jesus may have gone willingly to slaughter but I don't believe it was God that required it, so who required it?

God requires mercy and not sacrifice
I honestly believe God gives us what we want(You want a king to reign over you see how you get on with Saul), they the religious establishment wanted blood and they got it.

And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey their voice and make them a king.” 1 Samuel 8:22 Here ya go boys, see how get on with him.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:46 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,227 posts, read 650,871 times
Reputation: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I honestly believe, God gives us what we want(You want a king to reign over you see how you get on with Saul), they the religious establishment wanted blood and they got it.

And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey their voice and make them a king.” 1 Samuel 8:22 Here ya go boys, see how get on with him.
I agree,
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