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Old 11-22-2018, 12:14 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,249 posts, read 658,528 times
Reputation: 451

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BumbleBeeHunter View Post
Jesus was a man living on earth. This is not a spiritual fairy tale to be interpreted any way we want. Though no doubt, I've messed up on interpreting myself. There is a literal heaven, it is described as having many mansions where he's preparing a place for us.


Eternal torment is as bad as the bible lays it out to be. The only light in this darkness is it requires the faith of a mustard seed to be saved. Yet it lays out the behaviors the saved taken on, slowly. So if you seen little to no fruits or change, it's likely there never was a metamorphosis.


.I wanted the fire to be eternal like the burning bush...but just go to sleep without any accountability to what I've done on earth. Sadly that is not what scriptures teach. Eternal fire, knashing of teeth, is real.
This kept me from church for the majority of my life. Yet it is true so this reality must be dealt with somehow.


All humans shed their tents to take on a body which is eternal. A bad rap if you ask me. Oh how I wanted my first church, SDA's beliefs to be true. But sleep has many definitions, and they mean very different things.
You say it is not to be interpreted any way we want, but then say it has to be interpreted literally because your view is it must be literal, however the scriptures also say that the words are not literal, and the interpretations are not literal.

Good luck with your searching for “the truth”

 
Old 11-22-2018, 12:25 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,249 posts, read 658,528 times
Reputation: 451
Yes, if treated literally the scriptures and Christianity can give God a bad name......

Last edited by Meerkat2; 11-22-2018 at 12:41 PM..
 
Old 11-22-2018, 04:17 PM
 
605 posts, read 189,590 times
Reputation: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
You say it is not to be interpreted any way we want, but then say it has to be interpreted literally because your view is it must be literal, however the scriptures also say that the words are not literal, and the interpretations are not literal.

Good luck with your searching for “the truth”
thanks. Oh how I wish it wasn't literal!!!! so no doubt carry a bias to such

issue is, the bible doesn't appear to align with what i so want to believe
 
Old 11-22-2018, 05:37 PM
 
20,433 posts, read 9,845,914 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
You say it is not to be interpreted any way we want, but then say it has to be interpreted literally because your view is it must be literal, however the scriptures also say that the words are not literal, and the interpretations are not literal.

Good luck with your searching for “the truth”
Quote:
Originally Posted by BumbleBeeHunter View Post
thanks. Oh how I wish it wasn't literal!!!! so no doubt carry a bias to such

issue is, the bible doesn't appear to align with what i so want to believe
What is it you want to believe?
 
Old 11-22-2018, 05:40 PM
 
605 posts, read 189,590 times
Reputation: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
What is it you want to believe?
that people do not experience a literal hell of eternal damnation of hellfire
I'd rather believe they just go to sleep.


Anyhow I'd also rather believe cancer, heart attack, stroke, murder, child abuse, etc...doesn't exist either but it does
 
Old 11-22-2018, 05:59 PM
 
20,433 posts, read 9,845,914 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
What is it you want to believe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BumbleBeeHunter View Post
that people do not experience a literal hell of eternal damnation of hellfire
I'd rather believe they just go to sleep.


Anyhow I'd also rather believe cancer, heart attack, stroke, murder, child abuse, etc...doesn't exist either but it does
The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal time set for punishment or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life for that matter.

His power and divine nature are the only things which are Eternal. And the New Testament has only one word which can truthfully be translated as eternal. This is the Greek word Aidios which is used only twice: For since the creation of the world GODS invisible qualities - His eternal (aidios) power and divine nature - have been clearly seen.

If you read Jude 6, 7 - you will see a difference between them, whereas, they do not use the same Greek Word. The fire speaks to that of an age (a period of time), not something that is without a beginning or an end. And the eternal chains that hold them has to do with his eternal power, not all eternity .... Nobody would use two different words two describe the same thing, unless there was a difference in their application. Any divergence or variance is worthy of attention and significant.

Furthermore:

Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.

It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.

And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that mankind might come to this salvation and knowledge.

And the Penal Substitution theory is a fallacy, along with the ideology of hell itself.
 
Old 11-22-2018, 06:01 PM
 
Location: USA
15,906 posts, read 8,181,103 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by BumbleBeeHunter View Post
that people do not experience a literal hell of eternal damnation of hellfire
I'd rather believe they just go to sleep.


Anyhow I'd also rather believe cancer, heart attack, stroke, murder, child abuse, etc...doesn't exist either but it does
You should introduce yourself to Finn Jarber sometime. You've got so many of the same thought processes as he does and I think he said he was an atheist at some point as well. You two might find you have a lot in common.
 
Old 11-22-2018, 06:10 PM
 
605 posts, read 189,590 times
Reputation: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal time set for punishment or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life for that matter.

His power and divine nature are the only things which are Eternal. And the New Testament has only one word which can truthfully be translated as eternal. This is the Greek word Aidios which is used only twice: For since the creation of the world GODS invisible qualities - His eternal (aidios) power and divine nature - have been clearly seen.

If you read Jude 6, 7 - you will see a difference between them, whereas, they do not use the same Greek Word. The fire speaks to that of an age (a period of time), not something that is without a beginning or an end. And the eternal chains that hold them has to do with his eternal power, not all eternity .... Nobody would use two different words two describe the same thing, unless there was a difference in their application. Any divergence or variance is worthy of attention and significant.

Furthermore:

Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.

It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.

And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that mankind might come to this salvation and knowledge.

And the Penal Substitution theory is a fallacy, along with the ideology of hell itself.

This part of your post intregued me.



which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable.


So even if I am wrong, the thought reminds me of Hitler throwing the bodies into the fire. Some folks suffered longer than others.

With no set ending, it's akin to eternal damnation in my book.

Meaning it can last hella long......decades if not longer.


meaning annihilation is not necessarily a short time. It only means one second shorter than eternity which is forever. So by default, they have the same definition regarding time. Forever. Or one second short of eternity which essentially means, eternity.



Yes this is something with every fiber of my being I didn't want to believe in. Except the issue is, it's true.
 
Old 11-22-2018, 06:11 PM
 
605 posts, read 189,590 times
Reputation: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
You should introduce yourself to Finn Jarber sometime. You've got so many of the same thought processes as he does and I think he said he was an atheist at some point as well. You two might find you have a lot in common.
alright I'll watch out for his posts, thanks
 
Old 11-22-2018, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,440 posts, read 12,165,241 times
Reputation: 16655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
Yes, if treated literally the scriptures and Christianity can give God a bad name......
That happens to be my opinion...but from hearing from others, mostly....they opened my eyes to the absurdity of what is written about God in the Bible...before that I was an innocent 'follower'.
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