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Old 11-28-2018, 08:14 AM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 14 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,775 posts, read 13,399,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan85 View Post
Mans self- centeredness, and desire to follow the flesh contributes greatly to satans rule.
Quoth the cowering fundie.
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Old 11-28-2018, 08:44 AM
 
21,813 posts, read 16,674,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
If he rebelled, then at one time, he was good. But Jesus says he was a murderer from the beginning?
Yes, but that refers to Satan being responsible for the fall of man by tempting Adam. Scholars recognize that in Ezekiel 28 the king of Tyre is being compared to someone else. That someone else is being described in 28:11 and following. Most scholars, according to Old Testament scholar Michael Heiser are of the opinion that the person being described in 28:11 and following is Adam in the Garden of Eden. However, there are things being said in those verses which could not possibly be referring to Adam. Therefore, there are a minority of scholars who think that it is a divine spirit being (as in Satan) who is being referred to. Adam was never a cherub (a class of spirit being). If indeed it is Satan who is being referred to, as I believe it is, then it is saying that he was blameless in his ways from the day he was created until unrighteousness was found in him (v. 15).

If you're interested, you can listen to Heiser's lecture on this. It's an hour long.

The Anointed Cherub in Ezekiel 28 - Dr. Michael S. Heiser


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_DE4n-Afhs
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:55 PM
 
3,634 posts, read 1,132,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Or Satan works for G-d...
Funny how god ALWAYS NEEDS a middle man
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Old 11-28-2018, 04:17 PM
 
4,229 posts, read 1,624,081 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan85 View Post
Mans self- centeredness, and desire to follow the flesh contributes greatly to satans rule.



Seems most seek-money and pleasure first. Those that follow Jesus seek the kingdom and his- YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness first( Matthew 6:33)
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:34 AM
 
3,634 posts, read 1,132,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
According to the Bible Satan will be punished. He was sentenced to the lake of fire, but the sentence was not carried out immediately. Satan will be sent to the lake of fire at the end of the Millennial kingdom of Christ according to Revelation 20:10. Prior to that, Satan will be sent to the pit for the duration of the Millennial kingdom, and then released for a little while at the end of the Millennial kingdom at which time he will incite an overt rebellion against God. God will put a swift end to that rebellion and then send Satan and his angels into the lake of fire forever along with those members of the human race who did not come to Christ for salvation.

In the meantime Satan is being given an opportunity to prove his boast that he can rule as well as God. It may be that Satan appealed his sentencing to the lake of fire, calling it unjust. In perfect fairness and in justice God is giving Satan the chance during human history to rule in order to demonstrate that he is not able to effectively rule. As well, God allows sin and evil to run its full course during human history in order to demonstrate the results of rebellion against Him.

Satan is a created being who rebelled against God, but he is not as powerful as God and can only do what God permits him to.
Is rebellion a natural occurrence or does it also need created?
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:31 AM
 
10,528 posts, read 2,687,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
According to the Bible Satan will be punished. He was sentenced to the lake of fire, but the sentence was not carried out immediately. Satan will be sent to the lake of fire at the end of the Millennial kingdom of Christ according to Revelation 20:10. Prior to that, Satan will be sent to the pit for the duration of the Millennial kingdom, and then released for a little while at the end of the Millennial kingdom at which time he will incite an overt rebellion against God. God will put a swift end to that rebellion and then send Satan and his angels into the lake of fire forever along with those members of the human race who did not come to Christ for salvation.

In the meantime Satan is being given an opportunity to prove his boast that he can rule as well as God. It may be that Satan appealed his sentencing to the lake of fire, calling it unjust. In perfect fairness and in justice God is giving Satan the chance during human history to rule in order to demonstrate that he is not able to effectively rule. As well, God allows sin and evil to run its full course during human history in order to demonstrate the results of rebellion against Him.

Satan is a created being who rebelled against God, but he is not as powerful as God and can only do what God permits him to.
That is basically 'permitting evil or wrongdoing for the greater good' though...something that is strictly forbidden, and I believe is actually sinful.



The part where 'satan must be released for a short time'...who says he MUST be released? Plus, if hes in the pit, how can he also be the ruler of our world at the same time?...hes in the pit AND roaming around us like a lion?



If he truly rebelled against God, why would he play any part in something like this? If you rebelled against someone and you later found out they were using your actions to benefit themselves or something you didnt agree with...naturally you would STOP doing those things.
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:38 AM
 
10,528 posts, read 2,687,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
Is rebellion a natural occurrence or does it also need created?
Rebellion is a byproduct of free will...if you grant free will, the downside is, there is the possibility they will choose to reject you or 'rebel'.


That doesnt make it wrong though, they are just exercising their free will...something God gifted.


(I guess 'free will' is one of those gifts where you are expected to recognize/receive it...but never use it? LOL)
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:00 AM
 
3,634 posts, read 1,132,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Rebellion is a byproduct of free will...if you grant free will, the downside is, there is the possibility they will choose to reject you or 'rebel'.


That doesnt make it wrong though, they are just exercising their free will...something God gifted.


(I guess 'free will' is one of those gifts where you are expected to recognize/receive it...but never use it? LOL)
Still rebellion and free will all needed created and an omnigod would know the results for all eternity, right?
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:12 AM
 
21,813 posts, read 16,674,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
That is basically 'permitting evil or wrongdoing for the greater good' though...something that is strictly forbidden, and I believe is actually sinful.
God obviously does permit evil. Just look at the way the world is. And as I said, He allows evil, as well as sin to run its course though human history in order to demonstrate the results of rebellion against Him.

God has not forbidden Himself to allow evil. Not is it sinful for God to allow sin and evil. Sin is disobedience to God's stated will. Evil, that is, evil of a moral nature, is that which is in opposition to God. That God permits both sin and evil is necessary in order for both angelic and human volition to function. If created beings could not choose against God they would not have volition.


Quote:
The part where 'satan must be released for a short time'...who says he MUST be released? Plus, if hes in the pit, how can he also be the ruler of our world at the same time?...hes in the pit AND roaming around us like a lion?
God said in His revelation to John that it is necessary for Satan to be released from the pit for a short while as stated in Revelation 20:3.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3] and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
You have to keep things in context. Satan is presently free. He is not now imprisoned, and he is called the ruler of this age in 2 Corinthians 4:4. But in the Millennial age he will be imprisoned for that thousand year period and unable to influence anyone. This is to demonstrate that even though Satan is unable to influence anyone during the Millennial kingdom, man still will have a sin nature and will still rebel against Jesus' rule. Then when Satan is released for a while at the end of the Millennial kingdom, he will incite those people who have resented Jesus' rule over them to openly rebel against him as per Revelation 20:7-9.


Quote:
If he truly rebelled against God, why would he play any part in something like this?
Satan is in rebellion against God. He always will be. He is not working for God. He is being allowed by God to do his best to thwart God's plan. And God is demonstrating that He is in complete control of the situation and will bring things to a close in His time. At that time Satan will be permanently imprisoned in the lake of fire along with all, both angelic and human, who have rebelled against Him.

You may be thinking why God has allowed this to go on for so long, but all of human history is not even a drop in the bucket compared to God's eternal perspective. God knows what He's doing. He has a plan, a purpose, and a reason for allowing Satan's and man's rebellion to go on during human history. And it all has to do with demonstrating the utter futility, as well as the consequences of the creature rebelling against the Creator. Once the demonstration is complete, God will bring it to an end, and the eternal state will continue in the new heavens and new earth. Those who have sided with God will be with God forever, and those who have sided against God will be separated from God forever.

Last edited by Mike555; 11-29-2018 at 11:36 AM..
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:58 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 23,895,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God obviously does permit evil. Just look at the way the world is. And as I said, He allows evil, as well as sin to run its course though human history in order to demonstrate the results of rebellion against Him.

God has not forbidden Himself to allow evil. Not is it sinful for God to allow sin and evil. Sin is disobedience to God's stated will. Evil, that is, evil of a moral nature, is that which is in opposition to God. That God permits both sin and evil is necessary in order for both angelic and human volition to function. If created beings could not choose against God they would not have volition.





god created evil...and sin
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