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Old 12-13-2018, 11:54 AM
 
4,323 posts, read 881,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
See God gave the whole earth to Adam , but Adam needed God to interact this authority , then Adam failed because of the devil and God gave the earth to the authority of the world that Adam lost to the devil ...........Then four thousand years later Jesus came through God to take back what was lost to the devil , and Jesus was killed by the works of the devil on the cross of Christ , so God gave the earth to Jesus Christ , and the devil became a defeated foe ............... The devil still rules in the earth by people who give the devil authority by sin , but Jesus and His followers now can rip the devil out of His place with ease and God through the identity of Jesus will remove the devil through prayers ................ The devil is a general term for millions of demon spirits , and fallen angels , and powers of darkness ..........God gives blessing to the followers of Jesus which God can remove devils out of the earth , but many Christians do fail to use these gifts of God , or lean to division which is the spiritual authority of the devil .......... But Jesus still rules the heavens and the earth
You forget those other people that lived outside of the Garden of Eden at the same time. What where they, Neanderthals?
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Old 12-14-2018, 07:36 AM
 
30 posts, read 4,509 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
...Satan tempted Jesus to take possession of the kingdoms of the world in a way not consistent with the Father's plan. If Jesus had worshiped Satan as the condition for being given the kingdoms of the world He would have been outside of the Father's will. He would have sinned and He would have been disqualified to go to the cross to die for our sins, and there would have been no salvation.
When the Spirit led Christ into the "wilderness" to be tempted by the "devil" (Mat 4:1), what was the first thing Christ did? He fasted for forty days and nights (Mat 4:2). What was the first temptation this "devil" tempted Christ with? Food (Mat 4:3)! If you had not eaten for forty days and nights, do you think it would take a fallen angel to tempt you to eat?

When you get hungry and are tempted to eat, what do you think the tempter is? Is it an outside force or does the desire to eat come from the flesh?

Did a fallen angel actually take Christ up to the top of the temple and tempt Him to jump off? Do you really think this would have been a temptation for Christ? Would you be tempted to do that? And
wouldn't people have seen them way up there with this fallen angel tempting Christ?

How does the Bible describe the Holy City? The "Holy City" is to be His people after she's prepared as a bride for her husband (Rev 21:2). And God was to dwell with the "Holy City (Rev 21:3)." He was to be the Chief Corner Stone (Eph 2:20) or pinnacle of the temple which is His people or the body or bride of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 5:23).

So Christ goes in the Spirit at the temptation of His flesh to the position in the future He was to fulfill. That was the Savior, Husband and Head over His temple, bride and His people. His flesh tempts Him saying, "cast yourself down." You see, the flesh of Christ knew His purpose in coming. That was to redeem His people (Mat 15:24; Luke 1:68). He knew He was to die for His people (Mat 16:21; Luke 1:68). And the flesh does not want to die (Eph 5:29). So His flesh was saying to Him, "remove yourself from this position and you won't have to die."

And to make it even more desirable, the flesh did what Christ did in the previous temptation and quoted Scripture (Mat 4:6). In that Scripture Christ's flesh is saying, in so many words, "You don't have to die for your people, because you have ministers or "angels" that will "bear you up" or preach you so that you will still have your position and not fall from it." Of course this is a convoluted use of that passage, but isn't that what the flesh does with Scripture? Don't we see people making Scripture be what they want it to be? And again Christ refuted His flesh with Scripture (Mat 4:7).

The third temptation is the "devil" offering Christ all the kingdoms of men. The Bible says that God is the one that has that power (Dan 4:17). Think about it! Unless Christ is God, which He is, then His flesh could not make the offer and it be a temptation. Christ's flesh knew that He had that power. That's why He offered these kingdoms to Himself because it was His flesh "talking." Not a fallen angel who had no ability to offer this to Christ or anyone else.

What did the flesh do? It took Him up into an exceedingly high mountain. That's a figure of speech for the Kingdom of God (Isa 40:9; Ezek 28:16: 40:2; Rev 21:10). And His flesh showed Him the kingdoms of the world (Mat 4:8). Now what mountain is so high you can see all the kingdoms of the world? None! This is figurative speech for the Kingdom of God. And How could a fallen angel who has been cast down to earth have the liberty to just go into the Kingdom of God at will?

This temptation is a continuation of the previous one. In the previous one Christ's flesh didn't want to die and wished to get out of it. We know that Christ, exceedingly sorrowful unto death on His last night prayed that this "cup" be removed from Him if it were possible (Mat 26:38-39). It would seem to me that since the flesh tried again to convince Christ to remove Himself from salvaging or saving His people, Christ was greatly tempted in this particular temptation. The flesh was saying, in so many words, "You don't need your people, you've got all these other kingdoms. All you have to do is save your skin, because you are God." In other words Christ's flesh was saying "Fall down and worship me!"

These Scriptures that are used to prove a fallen angel "devil" have nothing to do with a fallen angel but Christ's temptation by His flesh:

(James 1:14 NASB) "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust."

Notice that James doesn't even offer a fallen angel as an option as to what tempts men.

If you were the Most High God in the flesh and it's you that has the power to give nations to whomever you wish (Dan 4:17), but you knew you had come to redeem the nation of your people (Luke 1:68) and that redemption required your death, do you not think, if you were tempted in all points as other flesh and blood people, you would be tempted to find a way around it? I mean, did not Christ, in AGONY, ask the Father that He be removed from that responsibility if it were possible to the point of sweating great drops of blood (Luke 22:42-44)?

And being God in the flesh, who came to redeem His people, and you are the Corner Stone (Mat 21:42; Acts 4:11; Eph 2:20; 1 Pet 2:7) of that people who are the temple (1 Cor 3:16-17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph :21-22; Heb 3:6; 1 Pet 2:5), do you not think you might be tempted by your flesh to think about being at the pinnacle (Greek word "pterugion", defined by Strong as "top corner") or chief corner stone of the temple or the nation of your people and removing yourself from that position by thinking you can have any other nation without having to die? Do you think that's even possible? It seems to me that a fallen angel could not have tempted Christ in any of the instances mentioned. But the flesh could. And as we all know the flesh can be a great "adversary" or "satan." And didn't Christ say the "devil" or "false accuser/witness" of man came from within the heart of man (Mat 15:19)? Didn't Paul agree (Rom 7:22-25)?
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:19 AM
 
21,839 posts, read 16,687,197 times
Reputation: 8661
Quote:
Originally Posted by brndnms View Post
When the Spirit led Christ into the "wilderness" to be tempted by the "devil" (Mat 4:1), what was the first thing Christ did? He fasted for forty days and nights (Mat 4:2). What was the first temptation this "devil" tempted Christ with? Food (Mat 4:3)! If you had not eaten for forty days and nights, do you think it would take a fallen angel to tempt you to eat?

When you get hungry and are tempted to eat, what do you think the tempter is? Is it an outside force or does the desire to eat come from the flesh?

Did a fallen angel actually take Christ up to the top of the temple and tempt Him to jump off? Do you really think this would have been a temptation for Christ? Would you be tempted to do that? And
wouldn't people have seen them way up there with this fallen angel tempting Christ?

How does the Bible describe the Holy City? The "Holy City" is to be His people after she's prepared as a bride for her husband (Rev 21:2). And God was to dwell with the "Holy City (Rev 21:3)." He was to be the Chief Corner Stone (Eph 2:20) or pinnacle of the temple which is His people or the body or bride of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 5:23).

So Christ goes in the Spirit at the temptation of His flesh to the position in the future He was to fulfill. That was the Savior, Husband and Head over His temple, bride and His people. His flesh tempts Him saying, "cast yourself down." You see, the flesh of Christ knew His purpose in coming. That was to redeem His people (Mat 15:24; Luke 1:68). He knew He was to die for His people (Mat 16:21; Luke 1:68). And the flesh does not want to die (Eph 5:29). So His flesh was saying to Him, "remove yourself from this position and you won't have to die."

And to make it even more desirable, the flesh did what Christ did in the previous temptation and quoted Scripture (Mat 4:6). In that Scripture Christ's flesh is saying, in so many words, "You don't have to die for your people, because you have ministers or "angels" that will "bear you up" or preach you so that you will still have your position and not fall from it." Of course this is a convoluted use of that passage, but isn't that what the flesh does with Scripture? Don't we see people making Scripture be what they want it to be? And again Christ refuted His flesh with Scripture (Mat 4:7).

The third temptation is the "devil" offering Christ all the kingdoms of men. The Bible says that God is the one that has that power (Dan 4:17). Think about it! Unless Christ is God, which He is, then His flesh could not make the offer and it be a temptation. Christ's flesh knew that He had that power. That's why He offered these kingdoms to Himself because it was His flesh "talking." Not a fallen angel who had no ability to offer this to Christ or anyone else.

What did the flesh do? It took Him up into an exceedingly high mountain. That's a figure of speech for the Kingdom of God (Isa 40:9; Ezek 28:16: 40:2; Rev 21:10). And His flesh showed Him the kingdoms of the world (Mat 4:8). Now what mountain is so high you can see all the kingdoms of the world? None! This is figurative speech for the Kingdom of God. And How could a fallen angel who has been cast down to earth have the liberty to just go into the Kingdom of God at will?

This temptation is a continuation of the previous one. In the previous one Christ's flesh didn't want to die and wished to get out of it. We know that Christ, exceedingly sorrowful unto death on His last night prayed that this "cup" be removed from Him if it were possible (Mat 26:38-39). It would seem to me that since the flesh tried again to convince Christ to remove Himself from salvaging or saving His people, Christ was greatly tempted in this particular temptation. The flesh was saying, in so many words, "You don't need your people, you've got all these other kingdoms. All you have to do is save your skin, because you are God." In other words Christ's flesh was saying "Fall down and worship me!"

These Scriptures that are used to prove a fallen angel "devil" have nothing to do with a fallen angel but Christ's temptation by His flesh:

(James 1:14 NASB) "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust."

Notice that James doesn't even offer a fallen angel as an option as to what tempts men.

If you were the Most High God in the flesh and it's you that has the power to give nations to whomever you wish (Dan 4:17), but you knew you had come to redeem the nation of your people (Luke 1:68) and that redemption required your death, do you not think, if you were tempted in all points as other flesh and blood people, you would be tempted to find a way around it? I mean, did not Christ, in AGONY, ask the Father that He be removed from that responsibility if it were possible to the point of sweating great drops of blood (Luke 22:42-44)?

And being God in the flesh, who came to redeem His people, and you are the Corner Stone (Mat 21:42; Acts 4:11; Eph 2:20; 1 Pet 2:7) of that people who are the temple (1 Cor 3:16-17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph :21-22; Heb 3:6; 1 Pet 2:5), do you not think you might be tempted by your flesh to think about being at the pinnacle (Greek word "pterugion", defined by Strong as "top corner") or chief corner stone of the temple or the nation of your people and removing yourself from that position by thinking you can have any other nation without having to die? Do you think that's even possible? It seems to me that a fallen angel could not have tempted Christ in any of the instances mentioned. But the flesh could. And as we all know the flesh can be a great "adversary" or "satan." And didn't Christ say the "devil" or "false accuser/witness" of man came from within the heart of man (Mat 15:19)? Didn't Paul agree (Rom 7:22-25)?
You're attempting to rationalize away clear statements in the Bible that a real entity known by his titles Satan and the devil exists, and did tempt Jesus.

In Revelation 12:7-9 Michael and his angels war against Satan and his angels. And Satan, who is said here to deceive the whole world, is cast down to the earth, and his angels with him. In Revelation 20 Satan is bound and thrown into the abyss for a thousand years. Using the excuse that Revelation is full of symbolism doesn't cut it in an attempt to refute that these passages are referring to an actual being who, yes, is a fallen angel. You either believe what the Bible says, or you don't.
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:38 AM
 
Location: US
27,963 posts, read 15,050,737 times
Reputation: 1741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You're attempting to rationalize away clear statements in the Bible that a real entity known by his titles Satan and the devil exists, and did tempt Jesus.

In Revelation 12:7-9 Michael and his angels war against Satan and his angels. And Satan, who is said here to deceive the whole world, is cast down to the earth, and his angels with him. In Revelation 20 Satan is bound and thrown into the abyss for a thousand years. Using the excuse that Revelation is full of symbolism doesn't cut it in an attempt to refute that these passages are referring to an actual being who, yes, is a fallen angel. You either believe what the Bible says, or you don't.
Thatís in your book, not ours...So, who made up this satan character with those attributes?...
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:27 AM
 
21,839 posts, read 16,687,197 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Thatís in your book, not ours...So, who made up this satan character with those attributes?...
I've already addressed this in post #152.
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:31 AM
 
20,389 posts, read 9,825,009 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You're attempting to rationalize away clear statements in the Bible that a real entity known by his titles Satan and the devil exists, and did tempt Jesus.

In Revelation 12:7-9 Michael and his angels war against Satan and his angels. And Satan, who is said here to deceive the whole world, is cast down to the earth, and his angels with him. In Revelation 20 Satan is bound and thrown into the abyss for a thousand years. Using the excuse that Revelation is full of symbolism doesn't cut it in an attempt to refute that these passages are referring to an actual being who, yes, is a fallen angel. You either believe what the Bible says, or you don't.
The fables and mythologies of man have been turned into unsound doctrine as taught by the Church. Adversity is a principle that results in active resistance, opposition, or contentiousness within the human nature. And the Hebrew term for Satan merely describes an adversarial role (an adversary). Whereas, an accuser (slanderer, devil) is known for his unrighteous disposition. However, the principalities and powers of unholy (human) messengers have inculcated by persistence; the doctrines of demons, devils and Satan in the early views of men, falsely fostering and prospering them. Truth becomes known, when deception falls away (that of self-induced blindness). Christ denounced these doctrines and traditions of men within the Spirit of truth, as the ego driven desires are within men; resist them.

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their mind set on what their nature desires, but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their mind set on what the Spirit wants: Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding of the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world (that which extends deep down from the surface - yet, is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to all humanity); the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition of the soul and the temperament within that of other men.


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Old 12-14-2018, 10:37 AM
 
21,839 posts, read 16,687,197 times
Reputation: 8661
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The fables and mythologies of man have been turned into unsound doctrine as taught by the Church. Adversity is a principle that results in active resistance, opposition, or contentiousness within the human nature. And the Hebrew term for Satan merely describes an adversarial role (an adversary). Whereas, an accuser (slanderer, devil) is known for his unrighteous disposition. However, the principalities and powers of unholy (human) messengers have inculcated by persistence; the doctrines of demons, devils and Satan in the early views of men, falsely fostering and prospering them. Truth becomes known, when deception falls away (that of self-induced blindness). Christ denounced these doctrines and traditions of men within the Spirit of truth, as the ego driven desires are within men; resist them.

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their mind set on what their nature desires, but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their mind set on what the Spirit wants: Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding of the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world (that which extends deep down from the surface - yet, is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to all humanity); the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition of the soul and the temperament within that of other men.


Satan is both an adversary and an accuser. He is also clearly depicted in the Bible as a real entity or being who opposes God. You either believe the Biblical writers or you don't. You don't.
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:58 AM
 
20,389 posts, read 9,825,009 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Satan is both an adversary and an accuser. He is also clearly depicted in the Bible as a real entity or being who opposes God. You either believe the Biblical writers or you don't. You don't.
I rely on the Spirit, reasoning, and common sense to guide me.
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:10 AM
 
21,839 posts, read 16,687,197 times
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I rely on the Spirit, reasoning, and common sense to guide me.
The fallacy of claiming to rely on the Spirit to guide you is that any number of people can make that claim and still come to entirely different conclusions about a thing.

And reasoning and common sense have no application to matters of supernatural realities which can only be known through divine revelation which the Biblical writers claim to have had.

Your's is nothing more than a modernistic worldview which rejects the supernatural.
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:26 AM
 
20,389 posts, read 9,825,009 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Satan is both an adversary and an accuser. He is also clearly depicted in the Bible as a real entity or being who opposes God. You either believe the Biblical writers or you don't. You don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I rely on the Spirit, reasoning, and common sense to guide me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The fallacy of claiming to rely on the Spirit to guide you is that any number of people can make that claim and still come to entirely different conclusions about a thing.

And reasoning and common sense have no application to matters of supernatural realities which can only be known through divine revelation which the Biblical writers claim to have had.

Your's is nothing more than a modernistic worldview which rejects the supernatural.
I haven't ran into superman, but I have read comic books. And, I don't jump out of airplanes without a parachute, that would be a mindless act. So, I can live with that. Thank you.
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