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Old 12-14-2018, 12:17 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Satan is both an adversary and an accuser.
The biggest and believed accusation is you are guilty before God.
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Old 12-14-2018, 02:21 PM
 
4,255 posts, read 1,628,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Thatís in your book, not ours...So, who made up this satan character with those attributes?...

He is not made up. Fact--He is the opposer speaking to God in Job. Is that in your book?
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Old 12-14-2018, 02:25 PM
 
4,255 posts, read 1,628,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brndnms View Post
Does the Bible really say a fallen angel named "Satan" is the God of this world? I think you're referring to this verse:

(2 Cor 4:4 KJV) "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Does this say there is a God of this world? Of course it does, but the question is, does that verse say the God of this world is a fallen spiritual being? Of course it doesn't! However if we let the
Bible interpret the Bible we can see who the God of this world really is. We see that God is the God of this world (Psalms 24:1; 50:7, 12). We also see that it is God that blinds the minds of the
unbelieving (2 Thes 2:11; Isa 29:10; 44:18). Do we believe 2 Cor 4:1-4 is speaking of a fallen angel or do we believe the Bible that the attributes mentioned in that passage belong to God Almighty? Do we make another god by giving God's attributes to a fictitious being?



Not sure which verse(s) you're speaking of but of the four times the term "evil one" is used in the book of 1 John in the KJV none are literally translated "evil one" the word "one" doesn't exist in the Greek. Not once is the implied "evil one" ever said to be a fallen angel or named "Satan."




I believe you are referring to this verse:

KJV Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The book of Revelation is a book of symbolism and must be understood within this light. This "satan" is "coming down" to the earth to the future of John in the first century A.D. (Rev 1:1, 19; 4:1; 22:6)and even then "he" only has a "short" time. How can this apply to a "fallen-angel" that was cast to earth before man was created? And if this could, somehow be applied before John's day, which I don't think it can would the time from when man was created to John's day be a "short" time?

Revelation does, indeed speak of a "satan"/"devil" but it never says this entity is a fallen-angel. In fact if I read about "satan" or "the devil" within the context of the book of Revelation, it's seems this "satan/devil" is simply a government of man in opposition to God.

This "satan" (adversary) or "devil" (false accuser) is identified in Revelation as something other than a fallen-angel.

This dragon, the old serpent, called the "devil" (false accuser) and "satan" (adversary) is described as having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns upon his heads and is scarlet or red:

(Rev 12:3 KJV) "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

And we see this "devil"/"satan" being described in Rev 17. He was "red" or "scarlet" and he had seven heads and ten horns.

(Rev 17:3 KJV) "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."

But we find out what heads and horns of this "devil" are just a few verses down:

(Rev 17:9-12 KJV) "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains (symbolism for kingdoms), on which the woman sitteth. {10} >>>And there are seven kings<<<:...{12} And the ten horns which thou sawest are >>>ten kings<<<, which have received no kingdom as yet; ..."

So, according to Revelation this "satan"/"devil" is simply humanly "ruled" kingdoms in opposition to God. This coincides with the term dragon, which in Scripture refers to the government of man in opposition to God's government. We see that Pharaoh was called a "great dragon" (Eze 29:3) and the kingdom of Babylon is likened unto a dragon (Isa 51:34).



Does not the Bible say God rules in the kingdoms of men and it is He who decides will rule in it (Dan 4:17, 25, 32; 5:21; Jer 27:5)?


Jesus even said satan rules this world( system of things)-- Yes God is the ruler of all creation. Its mortals who are being mislead into standing in opposition by action, not words for many. Satan beat them centuries ago by including pagan practices in the worlds celebrations.
Revelation is describing the antichrist.) Rev 16-- Every kingdom( govt, armies, supporters) will be mislead to stand in opposition. They are being mislead now as well.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:30 PM
 
30 posts, read 4,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You're attempting to rationalize away clear statements in the Bible that a real entity known by his titles Satan and the devil exists, and did tempt Jesus.
Would you please be specific and demonstrate what I have said that is wrong? Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In Michael and his angels war against Satan and his angels. And Satan, who is said here to deceive the whole world, is cast down to the earth, and his angels with him.
In the above scenario am I wrong in assuming you believe that this is an explanation of a fallen angel being thrown to the earth and is the "serpent" of Gen 3? If so, how do you explain that the events foretold in Revelation were things that "must shortly come to pass (Rev 1:1,; 22:6) from the first century A.D. when the Book of Revelation was written? Also we are told that when "the devil" was come down to the earth it was because he knew that he only had a short time (Rev 12:12). Would you consider the time from the serpent in the garden to after John's day to be a "short time?"

While I don't agree with Adam Clarke on everything, he has a learned view on the "satan" of Rev 12:9. Keep in mind that this man believed in a fallen-angel "satan.":

"By the terms Devil and Satan mentioned in this verse, Pareus, Faber, and many other commentators, understand literally the great spiritual enemy of mankind. But this view of the passage cannot be correct, from the circumstance that it is the dragon which is thus called. Now, if by the dragon be meant the devil, then use are necessarily led to this conclusion, that the great apostate spirit is a monster, having seven heads and ten horns; and also that he has a tail, with which he drags after him the third part of the stars of heaven. >>>The appellations, old serpent, devil, and Satan, must, therefore, be understood figuratively."<<<

This Bible "scholar" understood that the language here is figurative and does not speak of a fallen-angel. Again, this verse neither explains who "satan" is nor from where he came. In fact if I read this passage within the context of the book of Revelation, it's seems this "satan" is simply a pagan government of man in opposition to God. Clarke continues:

"The heathen power...an adversary, from its frequent persecutions of the Christian Church. The dragon and his angels are said to be cast out...is entirely cast out from all offices of trust in the empire; his religion is first only tolerated, and then totally abolished, by the imperial power...Paganism received several mortal strokes...but the total suppression of paganism soon followed the conversion of the metropolitan city, and about a.d. 395 the dragon may be considered, in an eminent sense, to have been cast into the earth, that is, into a state of utter subjection to the ruling dynasty of Christian emperors."


It's very obvious that this "satan" is governments of men in opposition to God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In Revelation 20 Satan is bound and thrown into the abyss for a thousand years. Using the excuse that Revelation is full of symbolism doesn't cut it in an attempt to refute that these passages are referring to an actual being who, yes, is a fallen angel. You either believe what the Bible says, or you don't.
I agree that we either believe what the Bible says or we don't, but I have never seen a passage that said an angel fell from heaven. In Young's literal translation you will not ever find the word "satan." The reason being is because Young literally transates the Hebrew word "satan.' Most versions seem to simply transliterate the word thereby clouding its meaning.

Young translate Rev 20:7 as follows:

YLT Revelation 20:7*∂ And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,

Clarke says this of this verse:

"Satan shall be loosed - How can this bear any kind of literal interpretation? Satan is bound a thousand years, and the earth is in peace; righteousness flourishes, and Jesus Christ alone reigns. This state of things may continue for ever if the imprisonment of Satan be continued. Satan, however, is loosed at the end of the thousand years, and goes out and deceives the nations, and peace is banished from the face of the earth, and a most dreadful war takes place, etc., etc. These can be only symbolical representations, utterly incapable of the sense generally put upon them."

The fact remains you have yet to show where an angel has fallen and renamed "Satan" or "the Devil." There is nothing saying this "satan" or "devil" is a fallen angel. You are simply supposing, but that is proof of nothing. Properly translated "satan" and "devil" should be translated properly. That is "adversary" and "false accuser." That makes things a little different than super-imposing an extra-Biblical belief into the Bible.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes, but that refers to Satan being responsible for the fall of man by tempting Adam.
The word "satan" is not anywhere to be found in the book of Genesis. No where is a fallen angel mentioned. You must assume that the "serpent" is a fallen angel, but there is no evidence of this being the case. We find that the "serpent" is grouped with the "beasts of the field (Gen 3:1)."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Scholars recognize that in Ezekiel 28 the king of Tyre is being compared to someone else. That someone else is being described in 28:11 and following. Most scholars, according to Old Testament scholar Michael Heiser are of the opinion that the person being described in 28:11 and following is Adam in the Garden of Eden. However, there are things being said in those verses which could not possibly be referring to Adam. Therefore, there are a minority of scholars who think that it is a divine spirit being (as in Satan) who is being referred to. Adam was never a cherub (a class of spirit being). If indeed it is Satan who is being referred to, as I believe it is, then it is saying that he was blameless in his ways from the day he was created until unrighteousness was found in him (v. 15).
Firstly, there is no mention of the word "satan", "devil" or "fallen angel" in this chapter. The King of Tyrus and the prince of Tyre are the only beings mentioned. There is nowhere in the Bible a fallen angel is called the King of Tyrus. Nowhere in the Bible is an angel said to have fallen. Secondly this being is being reduced to ashes (v. 18). Are angels made of spirit? If so can spirit burn?

Thirdly you are saying this creature is a fallen angel that was perfect in his beginning, but fell. Consider this verse:

KJV John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Here we see something called "the devil." Do you think this verse is about a fallen angel AKA "Satan" or "King of Tyrus?" If so how can these two passages be of the same thing when this one is a murderer from the beginning and the Ezekial creature is perfect from the beginning?

Where does the Bible say a Cherub is a spirit being?
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:37 PM
 
30 posts, read 4,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Jesus even said satan rules this world( system of things)--
Where did He say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Yes God is the ruler of all creation. Its mortals who are being mislead into standing in opposition by action, not words for many. Satan beat them centuries ago by including pagan practices in the worlds celebrations.
Can you support this with Scripture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Revelation is describing the antichrist.) Rev 16-- Every kingdom( govt, armies, supporters) will be mislead to stand in opposition. They are being mislead now as well.
Isn't "antichrist" simply a liar that denies Christ (1 John 2:22)?
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:40 PM
 
17,574 posts, read 10,635,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hball72 View Post
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

I have the mind of Christ because I'm His image. Listening to it consistently is the hard part.
Are you obeying Jesus commands in all ways which means obeying/doing the father's will?


I am not saying you are not, but in Matt 7 Jesus spoke of those who thought he was in them and he wasn't.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:44 PM
 
Location: US
27,987 posts, read 15,062,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Are you obeying Jesus commands in all ways which means obeying/doing the father's will?


I am not saying you are not, but in Matt 7 Jesus spoke of those who thought he was in them and he wasn't.
How would he be in them?...He hadn’t even died yet...

Last edited by Richard1965; 12-14-2018 at 03:55 PM..
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:46 PM
 
5,965 posts, read 1,705,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
I hope I am allowed to start this thread, I saw the other one, that had been locked, but it looks like that was closed due to the VERY long copy/paste and the jewish references.


This is a thread subject that is really very interesting to me, and I think it should be a great discussion, so lets avoid super long copy/pasting, and lets keep it a christian viewpoint,(if other denominations would like to discuss the same thing on their forum, thats great, but this is a christian board).


OK...


In another thread that this came up, I likened it to this scenario...you are married and have a family, some other guy is jealous of what you have and attempts to take your spot, rebels against you, etc. so you overcome him and cast him out of your life...BUT then you ALLOW him to still have access to and be able to influence your wife and kids...???


What kind of sense is that?
In time, God will judge the world. But he is allowing the devil to run amok for a time. Anyone that doubts the devil's impact on the world need only to view this forum and watch Christians get trashed by the usual suspects.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:47 PM
 
Location: US
27,987 posts, read 15,062,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
He is not made up. Fact--He is the opposer speaking to God in Job. Is that in your book?
In Job he is working for G-d, doing G-dís bidding...
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