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Old 12-14-2018, 03:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
In time, God will judge the world. But he is allowing the devil to run amok for a time. Anyone that doubts the devil's impact on the world need only to view this forum and watch Christians get trashed by the usual suspects.
Sad but true.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:57 PM
 
17,570 posts, read 10,635,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
How would he be in them?...He hadn’t even died yet...
UH, he was speaking of the future.
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Old 12-14-2018, 04:11 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,829 posts, read 13,426,503 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
In time, God will judge the world. But he is allowing the devil to run amok for a time. Anyone that doubts the devil's impact on the world need only to view this forum and watch Christians get trashed by the usual suspects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Sad but true.
LOL.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:11 PM
 
21,870 posts, read 16,702,058 times
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Originally Posted by brndnms View Post
Would you please be specific and demonstrate what I have said that is wrong? Thanks!
I'm not taking the time to go into each of your arguments from post #262. Collectively, your arguments simply disregard the fact that it is specifically stated in Matthew 4 that Jesus was tempted by the devil, and Jesus and the devil spoke to one another. That is not symbolic language.

Quote:
In the above scenario am I wrong in assuming you believe that this is an explanation of a fallen angel being thrown to the earth and is the "serpent" of Gen 3? If so, how do you explain that the events foretold in Revelation were things that "must shortly come to pass (Rev 1:1,; 22:6) from the first century A.D. when the Book of Revelation was written? Also we are told that when "the devil" was come down to the earth it was because he knew that he only had a short time (Rev 12:12). Would you consider the time from the serpent in the garden to after John's day to be a "short time?"
The event described in Revelation 12:7 and following in which the archangel Michael and his angels war with the dragon (Satan) and his angels takes place during the middle of the Tribulation when Satan loses access to heaven and is confined to the earth. The issue of what Revelation means by shortly coming to pass isn't relevant to the fact that Satan is said to be thrown down from heaven and his angels along with him. Satan is also identified here with the serpent of old which can only be a reference to Genesis.

Quote:
While I don't agree with Adam Clarke on everything, he has a learned view on the "satan" of Rev 12:9. Keep in mind that this man believed in a fallen-angel "satan.":

"By the terms Devil and Satan mentioned in this verse, Pareus, Faber, and many other commentators, understand literally the great spiritual enemy of mankind. But this view of the passage cannot be correct, from the circumstance that it is the dragon which is thus called. Now, if by the dragon be meant the devil, then use are necessarily led to this conclusion, that the great apostate spirit is a monster, having seven heads and ten horns; and also that he has a tail, with which he drags after him the third part of the stars of heaven. >>>The appellations, old serpent, devil, and Satan, must, therefore, be understood figuratively."<<<
The text of Revelation 12:9 refers to Satan as the great dragon, the serpent of old, and the devil.

Satan is a literal being. But the language in Revelation 13 is not referring to Satan. It is referring to the beast or antichrist who will be given power by Satan during the Tribulation. The language concerning the ten horns and the seven heads is symbolic language for the revived Roman empire. This language goes back to Daniel 7. In Daniel 7 the ten horns are said to be ten kings who will arise out of the fourth beast which is also said to be a forth kingdom on the earth.

If you are to understand Revelation you must understand the Old Testament.



Quote:
This Bible "scholar" understood that the language here is figurative and does not speak of a fallen-angel. Again, this verse neither explains who "satan" is nor from where he came. In fact if I read this passage within the context of the book of Revelation, it's seems this "satan" is simply a pagan government of man in opposition to God. Clarke continues:

"The heathen power...an adversary, from its frequent persecutions of the Christian Church. The dragon and his angels are said to be cast out...is entirely cast out from all offices of trust in the empire; his religion is first only tolerated, and then totally abolished, by the imperial power...Paganism received several mortal strokes...but the total suppression of paganism soon followed the conversion of the metropolitan city, and about a.d. 395 the dragon may be considered, in an eminent sense, to have been cast into the earth, that is, into a state of utter subjection to the ruling dynasty of Christian emperors."


It's very obvious that this "satan" is governments of men in opposition to God.



I agree that we either believe what the Bible says or we don't, but I have never seen a passage that said an angel fell from heaven. In Young's literal translation you will not ever find the word "satan." The reason being is because Young literally transates the Hebrew word "satan.' Most versions seem to simply transliterate the word thereby clouding its meaning.

Young translate Rev 20:7 as follows:

YLT Revelation 20:7*¶ And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,

Clarke says this of this verse:

"Satan shall be loosed - How can this bear any kind of literal interpretation? Satan is bound a thousand years, and the earth is in peace; righteousness flourishes, and Jesus Christ alone reigns. This state of things may continue for ever if the imprisonment of Satan be continued. Satan, however, is loosed at the end of the thousand years, and goes out and deceives the nations, and peace is banished from the face of the earth, and a most dreadful war takes place, etc., etc. These can be only symbolical representations, utterly incapable of the sense generally put upon them."
Why? Because you can't understand why God would allow Satan to be loosed for a while? There is nothing symbolic about the language.

Quote:
The fact remains you have yet to show where an angel has fallen and renamed "Satan" or "the Devil." There is nothing saying this "satan" or "devil" is a fallen angel. You are simply supposing, but that is proof of nothing. Properly translated "satan" and "devil" should be translated properly. That is "adversary" and "false accuser." That makes things a little different than super-imposing an extra-Biblical belief into the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brndnms View Post
The word "satan" is not anywhere to be found in the book of Genesis. No where is a fallen angel mentioned. You must assume that the "serpent" is a fallen angel, but there is no evidence of this being the case. We find that the "serpent" is grouped with the "beasts of the field (Gen 3:1)."
Satan is not mentioned in Genesis. Nevertheless, John, the writer of Revelation identifies Satan with the serpent of Old in Revelation 12:9. Since Satan is leading his angels as per Revelation 12:7 he himself is also a spirit being whether you use the general term 'angel,' are the more specific term Cherub which is a higher ranking spirit being.

That Satan is a fallen angel is understood from the greater context of the Bible rather than by pointing to some particular verse and saying that that verse doesn't call Satan a fallen angel.

Quote:
Firstly, there is no mention of the word "satan", "devil" or "fallen angel" in this chapter. The King of Tyrus and the prince of Tyre are the only beings mentioned. There is nowhere in the Bible a fallen angel is called the King of Tyrus. Nowhere in the Bible is an angel said to have fallen. Secondly this being is being reduced to ashes (v. 18). Are angels made of spirit? If so can spirit burn?
Scholars understand that in Ezekiel 28 Ethbaal III, the king of Tyre is being compared with someone else. There are only two choices. The majority of scholars believe that Ethbaa III is being compared with Adam in the Garden of Eden. The minority view among scholars, and again, it is the view to which I hold, is that the king of Tyre is being compared with a Cherub being. This would most naturally refer to Satan. As I said in another post, the language used in Ezekiel 28:11 and following simply cannot apply to a man, including Adam.




Quote:
Thirdly you are saying this creature is a fallen angel that was perfect in his beginning, but fell. Consider this verse:

KJV John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Here we see something called "the devil." Do you think this verse is about a fallen angel AKA "Satan" or "King of Tyrus?" If so how can these two passages be of the same thing when this one is a murderer from the beginning and the Ezekial creature is perfect from the beginning?

Where does the Bible say a Cherub is a spirit being?
It is Ezekiel 28:11 and following which refers to a Cherub who was blameless in his ways until unrighteousness was found in him.

And yes, Satan is called a murderer from the beginning because it was he who tempted Adam and the woman and caused the fall of man. Satan wasn't created as a fallen being who was a murderer. Satan fell, just as Adam later did.

Cherubim are described in Ezekiel chapters 1 and 10. Though in Ezekiel chapter one they are referred to as the four living beings rather than being called Cherubim, chapter 10 states that the four living beings in chapter one are Cherubim. Among other things, they are described as having wings. The lid of the ark of the Covenant depicted the image of two Cherubs.

In Genesis 3:24 Cherubim are placed at the east of the Garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.

Last edited by Mike555; 12-14-2018 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 12-15-2018, 12:12 AM
 
20,412 posts, read 9,834,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
In time, God will judge the world. But he is allowing the devil to run amok for a time. Anyone that doubts the devil's impact on the world need only to view this forum and watch Christians get trashed by the usual suspects.
Why do you insist on trashing others?
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Old 12-15-2018, 04:30 AM
 
Location: US
27,985 posts, read 15,062,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
UH, he was speaking of the future.
Uh, where?...
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Old 12-15-2018, 04:55 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This language goes back to Daniel 7. In Daniel 7 the ten horns are said to be ten kings who will arise out of the fourth beast which is also said to be a forth kingdom on the earth.

Daniel 7

7 After this, I saw in the visions of the night, and behold a fourth beast, awesome and dreadful and exceedingly strong, and it had huge iron teeth. It ate and crushed, and trampled the rest with its feet, and it was different from all the beasts that were before me, and it had ten horns.

Rashi:

in the visions of the night: on another night. The first three he saw on one night, and this one on another night, because it is equal to them all. In Leviticus Rabbah (13:5).

and it had… iron teeth: [as translated,] iron teeth.

and crushed: It crushed and ground finely.

and… the rest: what it left over from its eating.

and… ten horns: Aram. וְקַרְנַיִן עֲשַׂר. The angel explained to him that these are the ten kings who would ascend [the throne] of Rome before Vespasian, who would destroy the Temple.


Daniel 7 is speaking about things that have already transpired...
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:19 AM
 
21,870 posts, read 16,702,058 times
Reputation: 8687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Daniel 7

7 After this, I saw in the visions of the night, and behold a fourth beast, awesome and dreadful and exceedingly strong, and it had huge iron teeth. It ate and crushed, and trampled the rest with its feet, and it was different from all the beasts that were before me, and it had ten horns.

Rashi:

in the visions of the night: on another night. The first three he saw on one night, and this one on another night, because it is equal to them all. In Leviticus Rabbah (13:5).

and it had… iron teeth: [as translated,] iron teeth.

and crushed: It crushed and ground finely.

and… the rest: what it left over from its eating.

and… ten horns: Aram. וְקַרְנַיִן עֲשַׂר. The angel explained to him that these are the ten kings who would ascend [the throne] of Rome before Vespasian, who would destroy the Temple.


Daniel 7 is speaking about things that have already transpired...
Those who adopt a preteristic interpretation of Scripture would agree with you. I'm not a preterist, and hold to the futuristic view.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:48 AM
 
Location: New England
32,227 posts, read 21,115,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
In time, God will judge the world. But he is allowing the devil to run amok for a time. Anyone that doubts the devil's impact on the world need only to view this forum and watch Christians get trashed by the usual suspects.
God is scratching is heading wondering why christians live and talk defeated lives of failure, busying themselves with a world they are always speaking against and glorifying a defeated devil like it's got power.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:56 PM
 
Location: US
27,985 posts, read 15,062,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Those who adopt a preteristic interpretation of Scripture would agree with you. I'm not a preterist, and hold to the futuristic view.
Why is Daniel part of the K’tuvi’im and not part of the Nevi’im?...
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