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Old 11-16-2018, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Nope, angels do not have free will...
Scripture?
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Prove that it was satan in Gan Eden...
KJV Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,... 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Nope, angels do not have free will...
It seems to me you are disagreeing with James 1:13-15.
Those verses say that each is drawn out by his own desire. ( action preceded by thoughts )
Satan desires us humans to worship him by his own lustful desire. - Ezekiel 28:14-17
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
Are Adam and Eve in heaven right now? In hell or just nonexistent?
KJV Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return


KJV Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.




Ecclesiastes 9:6 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun


Ecclesiastes 9:10 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Florida -
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Nope...
Come on Richard; What's with all the drive-by "nopes"? The only thing you've said beyond 'noping' everyone else is, "Satan is an angel of God who works for God" --

True, Satan was created as an angel of God, but, along with a third of his demonic angels was cast down from heaven. "Knowing his time is short, and that he will soon be cast into the eternal lake of fire, Satan is exceedingly angry. The suggestion that he "works for God" is misleading and unverified. While Satan has no authority over God and is not equal with God, he is part of God's eternal plan. However, "works for God" suggests his lies, deception and evil ways are of God.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Come on Richard; What's with all the drive-by "nopes"? The only thing you've said beyond 'noping' everyone else is, "Satan is an angel of God who works for God" --

True, Satan was created as an angel of God, but, along with a third of his demonic angels was cast down from heaven. "Knowing his time is short, and that he will soon be cast into the eternal lake of fire, Satan is exceedingly angry. The suggestion that he "works for God" is misleading and unverified. While Satan has no authority over God and is not equal with God, he is part of God's eternal plan. However, "works for God" suggests his lies, deception and evil ways are of God.
You got it.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
It seems to me you are disagreeing with James 1:13-15.
Those verses say that each is drawn out by his own desire. ( action preceded by thoughts )
Satan desires us humans to worship him by his own lustful desire. - Ezekiel 28:14-17
And he is God's enemy as we see in the case of Lot.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
KJV Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return


KJV Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.




Ecclesiastes 9:6 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun


Ecclesiastes 9:10 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Everyone’s body eventually turns into dust.

Adam and Eve had souls, no?

Did their souls cease to exist?
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
Are Adam and Eve in heaven right now? In hell or just nonexistent?
Mortal Adam and Eve were only offered everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth if they did Not break God's Law.
As Genesis 3:19 says they ' returned ' to the dust of the ground.
So, they went back to where they started the dust of the ground.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Mortal Adam went from Non-life, to life, and returned back to Non-life.(non-existence)
No post-mortem bliss and No post-mortem pain.

Also, please keep in mind there is a BIG difference between a religious-myth hell teaching and biblical hell.
Can anyone think of anyone righteous who went to hell the day he died ________
I find at Acts 2:27 that righteous Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died.
Since Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures teach ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, then the dead know nothing, Nothing but sleep. Adam and Eve know nothing and are non-existent.
For us the resurrection hope is for us - Revelation 1:18
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Old 11-16-2018, 03:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Nope, angels do not have free will...
You're basing that assumption on what you think Judaism teaches. Yet, there were Jews during second temple period Judaism who believed that angels do have volition (I prefer to use the term volition rather than free will). The book of 1 Enoch which is a second temple period work which was written in sections over a long period of time spanning the second or third century BC to perhaps as late as the first century AD, and which was popular both among the Jews and the early Christians, expanded upon Genesis 6:4 in which the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and bore children to them. According to 1 Enoch, the sons of God in question were two hundred angels who descended from heaven to the summit of Mount Hermon and made a pact to mate with human women.
1 Enoch

[Chapter 6]

1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens. [Bolding mine]

The Wesley Center Online: Book Of Enoch
It was 1 Enoch which informed both Peter (2 Peter 2:4) and Jude (Jude 1:6) who wrote of angels who sinned and didn't keep their own abode and were imprisoned in Tartarus as a result. There is nothing else in the tanakh to which Peter and Jude could be referring apart from Genesis 6:4. This required volition on the part of the angels who chose to do this.

The book of Jubilees is another second temple period Jewish work which refers to the angels of God taking wives of whom they chose.
[Chapter 5]

And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants.
And lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walks on the earth -all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other, and lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all men (was) thus evil continually.
And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt, and all flesh had corrupted its orders, and all that were upon the earth had wrought all manner of evil before His eyes.
And He said that He would destroy man and all flesh upon the face of the earth which He had created.
But Noah found grace before the eyes of the Lord.
And against the angels whom He had sent upon the earth, He was exceedingly wroth, and He gave commandment to root them out of all their dominion, and He bade us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold they are bound in the midst of them, and are (kept) separate.
And against their sons went forth a command from before His face that they should be smitten with the sword, and be removed from under heaven.
And He said 'My spirit shall not always abide on man; for they also are flesh and their days shall be one hundred and twenty years'.
And He sent His sword into their midst that each should slay his neighbour, and they began to slay each other till they all fell by the sword and were destroyed from the earth.
And their fathers were witnesses (of their destruction), and after this they were bound in the depths of the earth for ever, until the day of the great condemnation, when judgment is executed on all those who have corrupted their ways and their works before the Lord. [Bolding mine.]

Jubilees 5

Last edited by Mike555; 11-16-2018 at 03:36 PM..
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