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Old 11-16-2018, 05:00 PM
 
Location: US
27,985 posts, read 15,057,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Mortal Adam and Eve were only offered everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth if they did Not break God's Law.
As Genesis 3:19 says they ' returned ' to the dust of the ground.
So, they went back to where they started the dust of the ground.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Mortal Adam went from Non-life, to life, and returned back to Non-life.(non-existence)
No post-mortem bliss and No post-mortem pain.

Also, please keep in mind there is a BIG difference between a religious-myth hell teaching and biblical hell.
Can anyone think of anyone righteous who went to hell the day he died ________
I find at Acts 2:27 that righteous Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died.
Since Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures teach ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, then the dead know nothing, Nothing but sleep. Adam and Eve know nothing and are non-existent.
For us the resurrection hope is for us - Revelation 1:18
Where does it say that they were offered paradise if they didnt break G-ds laws?...
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Lot???...Whats he got to do with it?...
Sorry, Job.
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:02 PM
 
Location: US
27,985 posts, read 15,057,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You're basing that assumption on what you think Judaism teaches. Yet, there were Jews during second temple period Judaism who believed that angels do have volition (I prefer to use the term volition rather than free will). The book of 1 Enoch which is a second temple period work which was written in sections over a long period of time spanning the second or third century BC to perhaps as late as the first century AD, and which was popular both among the Jews and the early Christians, expanded upon Genesis 6:4 in which the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and bore children to them. According to 1 Enoch, the sons of God in question were two hundred angels who descended from heaven to the summit of Mount Hermon and made a pact to mate with human women.
1 Enoch

[Chapter 6]

1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens. [Bolding mine]

The Wesley Center Online: Book Of Enoch
It was 1 Enoch which informed both Peter (2 Peter 2:4) and Jude (Jude 1:6) who wrote of angels who sinned and didn't keep their own abode and were imprisoned in Tartarus as a result. There is nothing else in the tanakh to which Peter and Jude could be referring apart from Genesis 6:4. This required volition on the part of the angels who chose to do this.

The book of Jubilees is another second temple period Jewish work which refers to the angels of God taking wives of whom they chose.
[Chapter 5]

And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants.
And lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walks on the earth -all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other, and lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all men (was) thus evil continually.
And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt, and all flesh had corrupted its orders, and all that were upon the earth had wrought all manner of evil before His eyes.
And He said that He would destroy man and all flesh upon the face of the earth which He had created.
But Noah found grace before the eyes of the Lord.
And against the angels whom He had sent upon the earth, He was exceedingly wroth, and He gave commandment to root them out of all their dominion, and He bade us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold they are bound in the midst of them, and are (kept) separate.
And against their sons went forth a command from before His face that they should be smitten with the sword, and be removed from under heaven.
And He said 'My spirit shall not always abide on man; for they also are flesh and their days shall be one hundred and twenty years'.
And He sent His sword into their midst that each should slay his neighbour, and they began to slay each other till they all fell by the sword and were destroyed from the earth.
And their fathers were witnesses (of their destruction), and after this they were bound in the depths of the earth for ever, until the day of the great condemnation, when judgment is executed on all those who have corrupted their ways and their works before the Lord. [Bolding mine.]

Jubilees 5
Youre wrong and Im done with you...
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:04 PM
 
21,870 posts, read 16,696,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The New Testament has nothing to do with the Tanakh...Its a different book...Its a collection of letters and therefore not scripture...Show me something from the Tanakh otherwise it is just a made up fictitious story...
Skeptics say the same thing about the Tanakh. So . . .
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:06 PM
 
21,870 posts, read 16,696,582 times
Reputation: 8687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You're basing that assumption on what you think Judaism teaches. Yet, there were Jews during second temple period Judaism who believed that angels do have volition (I prefer to use the term volition rather than free will). The book of 1 Enoch which is a second temple period work which was written in sections over a long period of time spanning the second or third century BC to perhaps as late as the first century AD, and which was popular both among the Jews and the early Christians, expanded upon Genesis 6:4 in which the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and bore children to them. According to 1 Enoch, the sons of God in question were two hundred angels who descended from heaven to the summit of Mount Hermon and made a pact to mate with human women.
1 Enoch

[Chapter 6]

1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens. [Bolding mine]

The Wesley Center Online: Book Of Enoch
It was 1 Enoch which informed both Peter (2 Peter 2:4) and Jude (Jude 1:6) who wrote of angels who sinned and didn't keep their own abode and were imprisoned in Tartarus as a result. There is nothing else in the tanakh to which Peter and Jude could be referring apart from Genesis 6:4. This required volition on the part of the angels who chose to do this.

The book of Jubilees is another second temple period Jewish work which refers to the angels of God taking wives of whom they chose.
[Chapter 5]

And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants.
And lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walks on the earth -all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other, and lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all men (was) thus evil continually.
And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt, and all flesh had corrupted its orders, and all that were upon the earth had wrought all manner of evil before His eyes.
And He said that He would destroy man and all flesh upon the face of the earth which He had created.
But Noah found grace before the eyes of the Lord.
And against the angels whom He had sent upon the earth, He was exceedingly wroth, and He gave commandment to root them out of all their dominion, and He bade us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold they are bound in the midst of them, and are (kept) separate.
And against their sons went forth a command from before His face that they should be smitten with the sword, and be removed from under heaven.
And He said 'My spirit shall not always abide on man; for they also are flesh and their days shall be one hundred and twenty years'.
And He sent His sword into their midst that each should slay his neighbour, and they began to slay each other till they all fell by the sword and were destroyed from the earth.
And their fathers were witnesses (of their destruction), and after this they were bound in the depths of the earth for ever, until the day of the great condemnation, when judgment is executed on all those who have corrupted their ways and their works before the Lord. [Bolding mine.]

Jubilees 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Youre wrong and Im done with you...
How can I be wrong when I quoted from the 2nd temple period Jewish sources?
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:06 PM
 
Location: US
27,985 posts, read 15,057,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
That is your opinion. But try:


KJV Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.



It is plain.


From the TWOT:

n. Adversary, one who withstands, Satan. The nominal from n identifies Solomon's adversaries (1Kings 11:14, 23, 25; cf. 1Kings 5:4; 1Sam 29:4). David spoke of his vengeful officer Abishai as a n (2Sam 19:22 [H 23]). Indeed, the pre-incarnate Christ, or Angel of Yahweh might be described or even identify himself as a sn, when opposing Balaam (Num 22:22, 32).

Throughout history mankind's preeminent opponent has been Satan, "that old serpent" (Rev 12:9). He is a mighty angel (cf. his appearance with other "sons of God" in Job 1:6; Jude 1:9). [Whether Satan was also a cherub depends on one's interpretation of Ezek 28:12-16. These verses condemn the king of Tyre, but go beyond him by comparing him to a figure of perfection who was in Eden, who was created holy and later fell. The figures of both Adam and Satan have been proposed for the person intended.

Three lines of evidence support the identification of this king with Satan: 1) Ezekiel may have intended to contrast the prince of Tyre (Ezek 28:1-10) with the king of Tyre (Ezek 28:11-19). Whereas the prince is a man aspiring to deity and heaven, the king is a heavenly being cast out of heaven. 2) The god of Tyre at this time is malkart, meaning "king of the city, " so that would be the king of Tyre. 3) The apostle Paul identifies Satan's sin with pride (1Tim 3:6), the sin of this king (v. 17). This may be the only passage in the OT from which he could have derived this truth.


Bibliography: Kluger, Rivkahs., Satan in the OT, Northwestern University, 1967. Payne, J. B., Theology of the Older Testament, Zondervan, 1971, pp. 291-95. Hiebert, D. E., "Satan, " in ZPEB, V, pp. 282-86. J.B.P.
What you cut and paste is nonsense...Try using the actual Hebrew Bible And Rashi commentary to understand what you are reading...
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:34 PM
 
17,570 posts, read 10,630,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
What you cut and paste is nonsense...Try using the actual Hebrew Bible And Rashi commentary to understand what you are reading...
I use the Hebrew Bible just not on this computer.


What makes you think Rashe is right?
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Old 11-16-2018, 07:31 PM
 
20,411 posts, read 9,831,311 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Come on Richard; What's with all the drive-by "nopes"? The only thing you've said beyond 'noping' everyone else is, "Satan is an angel of God who works for God" --

True, Satan was created as an angel of God, but, along with a third of his demonic angels was cast down from heaven. "Knowing his time is short, and that he will soon be cast into the eternal lake of fire, Satan is exceedingly angry. The suggestion that he "works for God" is misleading and unverified. While Satan has no authority over God and is not equal with God, he is part of God's eternal plan. However, "works for God" suggests his lies, deception and evil ways are of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
You got it.
Fables and myth's are fairy tales for children.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Fables and myth's are fairy tales for children.
Right and truth is for adults who think not bash others.
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Old 11-16-2018, 10:48 PM
 
20,411 posts, read 9,831,311 times
Reputation: 1677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Fables and myth's are fairy tales for children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Right and truth is for adults who think not bash others.
No bashing, just speaking the truth as an adult.
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