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Old 11-17-2018, 04:01 AM
 
Location: US
27,954 posts, read 15,039,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
I use the Hebrew Bible just not on this computer.


What makes you think Rashe is right?
Because heís a Jew expounding on a Jewish book?...Itís our book, what gives the Christians the right to co-opt it and modify it?...Since Buddhism sprang from Hinduism, would you ask a Buddhist to explain Hinduism to you or would you ask a Hindu to explain Hinduism to you?...
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Old 11-17-2018, 04:02 AM
 
Location: US
27,954 posts, read 15,039,743 times
Reputation: 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
I use the Hebrew Bible just not on this computer.


What makes you think Rashe is right?
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:55 AM
 
2,304 posts, read 623,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
I hope I am allowed to start this thread, I saw the other one, that had been locked, but it looks like that was closed due to the VERY long copy/paste and the jewish references.


This is a thread subject that is really very interesting to me, and I think it should be a great discussion, so lets avoid super long copy/pasting, and lets keep it a christian viewpoint,(if other denominations would like to discuss the same thing on their forum, thats great, but this is a christian board).


OK...


In another thread that this came up, I likened it to this scenario...you are married and have a family, some other guy is jealous of what you have and attempts to take your spot, rebels against you, etc. so you overcome him and cast him out of your life...BUT then you ALLOW him to still have access to and be able to influence your wife and kids...???


What kind of sense is that?


Adam dropped the ball and the devil picked it up and still has it until the Lord gets it back (redeemed). The devil serves the purpose of testing us, like he will do at the end of the millenium. We all get tested.
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:59 AM
Status: "Sliatkcoc" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Sheffield, England
1,503 posts, read 250,166 times
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Well, the real question is, apart from the circular logic and reasoning of using the Bible to prove the Bible, and what a religion told you, what is your evidence for a "devil"?

"Evil", as we call it, originates from the ego, which is a biologically rooted self protection mechanism responsible for the selfish aspects of our character. It has to be controlled and moderated. Blaming an invisible devil for "evil" is a really good escape clause to pretend we are not really as in control of our behaviour as we really are.
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Old 11-17-2018, 06:46 AM
 
3,634 posts, read 1,132,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
Adam dropped the ball and the devil picked it up and still has it until the Lord gets it back (redeemed). The devil serves the purpose of testing us, like he will do at the end of the millenium. We all get tested.
Laughing Way out loud

Does an omnigod need a in between entity to KNOW who will pass or fail.
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Old 11-17-2018, 07:31 AM
 
21,813 posts, read 16,674,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Because heís a Jew expounding on a Jewish book?...Itís our book, what gives the Christians the right to co-opt it and modify it?...Since Buddhism sprang from Hinduism, would you ask a Buddhist to explain Hinduism to you or would you ask a Hindu to explain Hinduism to you?...
Your entire Tanakh is a modified text. The Tanakh is the Masoretic text which was copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries AD. The Masoretes took existing texts and standardized them. There never was any one ''The Hebrew Bible.'' There were various texts in circulation. This is evident because there are instances in which the Masorectic text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Septuagint all disagree with each other.

And being a Jew does not mean that you understand the Tanakh any more than being a Christian means that the Christian understands the New Testament.
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Old 11-17-2018, 08:24 AM
 
10,529 posts, read 2,687,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
Your scenario is faulty. Each person has a choice to make whom they will be influenced by. If you overcome the devil, then you cast him out of your life. If you do not, then it is evidence that you have NOT overcome the devil. But... it's your decision. Not the devil's. Your wife and kids have the same individual choice. Humans either obey him by choice when they allow themselves to be ruled over by their natural carnal impulses - or they choose to follow the will of God as their father. If they choose the latter, Satan has no power over them.

The devil doesn't rule the world. The devil temporarily rules over carnal humans who choose to do the devil's will in accordance with their natures. The devil doesn't rule over nature, or over animals or over plants or over the fate of the earth. He rules over fallen humans.

Jesus is the king of all creation. The world is HIS. Satan is just rebelling and causing others to rebel.
This thread is about WHY satan has this ability/power in the first place.


If he truly rebelled against God, why does God permit him to do these things...if its about free will as some suggest...well that implies that satan did not rebel at all, and has some purpose in his actions, which ultimately benefit God.


The type of God we see in the OT, if satan really rebelled like it described, I would think God would just have turned him to dust right there on the spot and he would simply not exist anymore.
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Old 11-17-2018, 08:32 AM
 
10,529 posts, read 2,687,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
Laughing Way out loud

Does an omnigod need a in between entity to KNOW who will pass or fail.
That is very true and a great point with some pretty huge implications...why would such a God need a being like satan (that may be the bigger question than the thread topic I created actually).



Besides that, if satan rebelled against God, why would he be taking part and doing things that benefit God, like testing humans? Someone who rebels against another usually will go out of their way to NOT do anything that may benefit their enemy/adversary.
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Old 11-17-2018, 09:44 AM
 
2,075 posts, read 1,462,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Actually Jesus' rulership is in conflict with Satan's. Satan rules the world and Nations by their acceptance and following his ways. Jesus is still at war with such which is why we still pray for that kingdom to come and God's will to be done on earth.



Satan is in rebellion and the "world" has accepted his rulership.





Jesus was very plain about this.


KJV John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


NKJ John 14:30 "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.


The Greek word used in this spot is Archon which means.

758 a;rcwn archon {ar'-khone}
Meaning: 1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader
As with any theological question, it is dangerous to hang your hat on just one verse. John 14 is by no means supportive of your point, beyond a surface interpretation of terms. Consider Luke 17:20-21.

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Satan is the leader of a rebel kingdom in contest with the kingdom of God for the obedience of men. Satan is the ruler of the fallen HUMAN world and system of rebellion. But it's pretty much understood by Christians (who read the Bible) that Satan has no power, besides death, over anything on Earth except carnal humans who choose to obey him rather than God. Beyond them, Satan has no power. The children of God will inherit the Earth and the eternal kingdom of God. For now, they only await the full realization of the eternal kingdom God made them which cannot be undone, thwarted or otherwise nullified by anything Satan does.

Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 11-17-2018 at 09:54 AM..
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Old 11-17-2018, 09:58 AM
 
2,075 posts, read 1,462,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
This thread is about WHY satan has this ability/power in the first place.


If he truly rebelled against God, why does God permit him to do these things...if its about free will as some suggest...well that implies that satan did not rebel at all, and has some purpose in his actions, which ultimately benefit God.


The type of God we see in the OT, if satan really rebelled like it described, I would think God would just have turned him to dust right there on the spot and he would simply not exist anymore.

The type of God we see in the OT didn't turn Satan into dust right on the spot, as you hypothesize, so your assertion is.... demonstrably false.

The ability you speak of, that Satan has, is the ability to choose whom he will serve. Why would God NOT grant him the ability to make such a choice? Would God need to be worried about something? And it's the same choice you and I have. The choice whom we will serve. There is an expanse of time allotted for making this choice. And then the time will end and eternity will be set in stone. So, you'll get your hypothesis granted in the long run, just not exactly as you would expect.

God isn't worried about anything going wrong with this option. It's not like you can accomplish anything by rebelling, except gaining nothing. God is all powerful. He cannot be thwarted.
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