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I'm not going to debate this with you any more Preterist. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that one day everyone will acknowledge that Jesus is King and that has not happened, if He had returned I would be with Him physically, not just spiritually. I believe in the rapture of the church and I believe the tribulation has not happened. But I respect your right to believe what you do, even through I think it's wrong.
With all due and sincere respect, ILNC, it does not matter what we "think" if that thinking is not based completely on the truths of God's word.
We must all ask ourselves: "Am I willing to discard anything and everything I believe if I find the Scriptures prove what I believe to be wrong no matter how long I have held such a belief, no matter how good it makes me feel, and no matter how much I want to believe it?"
Why do you refuse to deal with what I posted? Does what I posted make any sense to you? Does it perhaps hold some truth? Or do you simply discard what others say because they do not agree with you? I hope I do not sound harsh here because I do not intend to.
You obviously do want to debate or you wouldn't be here. I would hope that when people disagree with us that we would consider any merits to their arguments. Are you absolutely certain that you are correctly understanding the passages you provided? Is there no room for giving some thought to what others think?
But if you do not wish to continue, I respect that. I only encourage you to be open to other perspectives. We are all vulnerable to error. I will not cling tenaciously to what I believe--but I will believe what I have diligently sought to understand unless or until someone proves me wrong or my further investigation proves me wrong. I desire the truth! I will gladly cast aside anything I believe if truth is revealed to me. I obviously did that in casting aside the many errors of premillennial dispensationalism.
I continue to search and continue to keep myself open to what enlightenments other may have to share.
God bless you as you continue to search for His truth, ILNC!
Luke 21:8
He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them
Any one who says they know the day\month\year (for some who says Jesus already came [second coming]) are deceivers. Nobody knows. We are to warn about the worlds end, not to predict it.
With all due and sincere respect, ILNC, it does not matter what we "think" if that thinking is not based completely on the truths of God's word.
We must all ask ourselves: "Am I willing to discard anything and everything I believe if I find the Scriptures prove what I believe to be wrong no matter how long I have held such a belief, no matter how good it makes me feel, and no matter how much I want to believe it?"
Why do you refuse to deal with what I posted? Does what I posted make any sense to you? Does it perhaps hold some truth? Or do you simply discard what others say because they do not agree with you? I hope I do not sound harsh here because I do not intend to.
You obviously do want to debate or you wouldn't be here. I would hope that when people disagree with us that we would consider any merits to their arguments. Are you absolutely certain that you are correctly understanding the passages you provided? Is there no room for giving some thought to what others think?
But if you do not wish to continue, I respect that. I only encourage you to be open to other perspectives. We are all vulnerable to error. I will not cling tenaciously to what I believe--but I will believe what I have diligently sought to understand unless or until someone proves me wrong or my further investigation proves me wrong. I desire the truth! I will gladly cast aside anything I believe if truth is revealed to me. I obviously did that in casting aside the many errors of premillennial dispensationalism.
I continue to search and continue to keep myself open to what enlightenments other may have to share.
God bless you as you continue to search for His truth, ILNC!
In Christ, Preterist
With all due respect to you Preterist, to answer you, no what you have posted does not make sense to me. I do not believe it is Biblical, it is not what the Bible teaches. I do not believe there is any truth to it. I don't want to sound harsh either, but you asked. And yes I am certain I am understanding these verses correctly. The things you say you believe are scary because I believe the devil has blinded you to the truth. I do pray you continue to search for the truth, and I hope you find it.
Philippians 2:10-11 "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow in Heaven and on earth and under the earth. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"
One has only to read any thread on this forum to see that this has not come to pass. Every means EVERY knee and EVERY tongue.
Philippians 2:10-11 "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow in Heaven and on earth and under the earth. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"
One has only to read any thread on this forum to see that this has not come to pass. Every means EVERY knee and EVERY tongue.
Simple Living: Did you read my post? I agree that every means every. I have no problem with that. I explained the meaning of the mood used in Phil. 2:10-11. Because He humbled Himself and was obedient unto death, God highly exalted Him--as a result of His humility and sacrifice, every knee SHOULD bow (is obligated to bow) and every tongue SHOULD confess (is obligated to confess) that Jesus Christ is Lord (this is the rendering found in the New King James Version). This does not mean that everyone at some future time will bow or will confess.
The tense here is NOT the simple future (translated as "will bow"), but is in the aorist. The mood is not indicative but subjunctive. Hence there is nothing about time here. It simply states that because of what Jesus has done and because of the place God has given Him, everyone owes Him reverence. It does not say that ALL will display that reverence and will bow but rather that all SHOULD bow. Jesus' death on the cross and God's exaltation of Him has already taken place--since that time all mankind owes Him the act of bowing the knee and confession with the tongue. Some bow the knee to their salvation; many do not to their condemnation.
arguy: What do you mean by "soon?" James wrote in the first century "the coming of the Lord is at hand" (James 5:8). What did he mean? If "at hand" doesn't really mean soon here as much of the church proclaims today, then I guess your statement that "our redeemer is coming soon" could really mean thousands of years away. Words mean things.
When you used the word "soon," you intended for your readers to understand that you mean in a very short time. Why are not the new testament writers afforded that same understanding?
In Christ, Preterist
1. yes it could mean thousands of years away...I personaly dont believe so..the most important thing is to be ready walk daily with Christ..2.how do you know they didnt know what they meant?
Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
Matthew 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Matthew 24:44 "For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
2 Peter 3
7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness,
12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;
With all due respect to you Preterist, to answer you, no what you have posted does not make sense to me. I do not believe it is Biblical, it is not what the Bible teaches. I do not believe there is any truth to it. I don't want to sound harsh either, but you asked. And yes I am certain I am understanding these verses correctly. The things you say you believe are scary because I believe the devil has blinded you to the truth. I do pray you continue to search for the truth, and I hope you find it.
Nope. Devil didn't blind me. He's been taken care of! I have searched for the truth and have found that premillennial dispensationalism is the biggest error of our day! I hope that you will come to deal honestly with the many, many time references in the Scriptures that dispensationalists love to ignore or redefine. That's scary to me! Those time statements ARE what the Bible teaches--that's the truth. Shortly means shortly. Soon means soon. At hand means at hand. Near means near.
What is so hard to understand about these?
"The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)
"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8)
"The things which must SHORTLY take place" (Rev. 1:1)
"The time is NEAR" (Rev. 1:7)
1. yes it could mean thousands of years away...I personaly dont believe so..the most important thing is to be ready walk daily with Christ..2.how do you know they didnt know what they meant?
Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
Matthew 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Matthew 24:44 "For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
2 Peter 3
7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness,
12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;
Arguy: Soon means in a short while--that is clearly what it means. It cannot means thousands of years. Furthermore, 2 Peter 3 does NOT support your beliefs. IN GOD'S EYES, a thousand years SEEMS as one day and a day as a thousand years. It says that a thousand years are AS a day--not that a thousand years equal a day (and vice versa). HE is not bound by time--but we are. The entire point of that passage is NOT to undo the time spectrum in which we live and in which God communicates with us. Let me follow your logic for 2 Peter 3. You believe in a one-thousand year literal reign, right? But if a day can be a thousand years, then cannot a thousand years be a day? Perhaps you millennium will only last one day.
The point is that God is faithful and does what He does in His own time. We can trust in that faithfulness. BUT when He gives us a time reference, it means exactly what it always means. It has the same sense in which you yourself used the word "soon." You meant to convey that you believe the Lord is coming SOON! And you used the word SOON in a way that you knew others would understand it.
What is the CONTEXT of Matthew 24? To whom is Jesus speaking? Not to us but to His first-century disciples right there with Him. THEY were told to be ready; THEY were told to be alert. Jesus did not know the day or the hour, but HE knew the time frame--"THIS generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." A.D. 70!
Also, 2 Peter 3 is filled with figurative language much the same as that used in the OT. Upheavals in the heavens on the earth are common means of expressing a coming judgment of God. Furthermore, the "elements" spoken of are not CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS! EVERY time this word is used (stoicheia) it refers to the teachings or precepts of man. EVERY time! It is NEVER used to describe the chemical makeup of the earth.
To whom is Peter speaking in 2 Peter? "Beloved, I now write to YOU THIS second epistle." He wrote the first one "to the pilgrims of the DISPERSION in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (1 Peter 1:1)! These are the same people he is addressing in 2 Peter! Knowing that the things described figuratively are to soon happen to them, THEY are to live godly and holy lives. They are earnestly looking for and desiring the day of the Lord--expecting it in their lifetimes. THEY want to be found blameless in His sight at His soon coming. This entire passage is filled with a sense of the imminency of the Lord's return.
Arguy: Soon means in a short while--that is clearly what it means. It cannot means thousands of years. Furthermore, 2 Peter 3 does NOT support your beliefs. IN GOD'S EYES, a thousand years SEEMS as one day and a day as a thousand years. It says that a thousand years are AS a day--not that a thousand years equal a day (and vice versa). HE is not bound by time--but we are. The entire point of that passage is NOT to undo the time spectrum in which we live and in which God communicates with us. Let me follow your logic for 2 Peter 3. You believe in a one-thousand year literal reign, right? But if a day can be a thousand years, then cannot a thousand years be a day? Perhaps you millennium will only last one day.
The point is that God is faithful and does what He does in His own time. We can trust in that faithfulness. BUT when He gives us a time reference, it means exactly what it always means. It has the same sense in which you yourself used the word "soon." You meant to convey that you believe the Lord is coming SOON! And you used the word SOON in a way that you knew others would understand it.
What is the CONTEXT of Matthew 24? To whom is Jesus speaking? Not to us but to His first-century disciples right there with Him. THEY were told to be ready; THEY were told to be alert. Jesus did not know the day or the hour, but HE knew the time frame--"THIS generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." A.D. 70!
Also, 2 Peter 3 is filled with figurative language much the same as that used in the OT. Upheavals in the heavens on the earth are common means of expressing a coming judgment of God. Furthermore, the "elements" spoken of are not CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS! EVERY time this word is used (stoicheia) it refers to the teachings or precepts of man. EVERY time! It is NEVER used to describe the chemical makeup of the earth.
To whom is Peter speaking in 2 Peter? "Beloved, I now write to YOU THIS second epistle." He wrote the first one "to the pilgrims of the DISPERSION in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (1 Peter 1:1)! These are the same people he is addressing in 2 Peter! Knowing that the things described figuratively are to soon happen to them, THEY are to live godly and holy lives. They are earnestly looking for and desiring the day of the Lord--expecting it in their lifetimes. THEY want to be found blameless in His sight at His soon coming. This entire passage is filled with a sense of the imminency of the Lord's return.
Preterist
so to you the whole new testament is about 98% in past tense and doesnt apply to us today? that is what I get out of most of your post. you can use THEY all you want to but I find that the Bible relates to me, now. Thanks but I want ZERO to do with the preterism belief.
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