The Church and "church" in the last days. (preach, believer)

[Simple Living]

There's a difference between an individual/couple saving money and a church hoarding it so they can grow into a larger building so the youth can have a play room full of video games, or to add on a coffee shop or a bookstore. (Didn't Jesus get angry about using His Father's house as a marketplace?)

Many of these churches have so many of their own self-centered programs going on in which they beg and guilt the congregation into giving towards, but their out-going offerings pale in comparison. Ask them for $250 to help a missionary pastor makes ends meet this month and they'll turn you down, stating that they just don't have it. "It's not in our budget."

Churches weren't intended to grow and stay in one place. (And they certainly weren't intended to grow using secular marketing and growth specialists!) The first churches grew in number based upon real inward changes in their lives and then a portion of them moved on to plant another church in another area. It was about their first love - Jesus! It wasn't about the pastor with the biggest congregation or building.

An individual/couple saving money is called wisdom and is instructed in scripture. Like you mentioned, giving is also wisdom.

[Towhee]

The church of Christ does have some large buildings for some congregations. Much too large in my opinion, and the congregations are so large the members can not possibly know many of them. Some even have 2 AM services to accomodate the large mambership. I think breaking it up into smaller groups would be better. Our congregation is a small country group. We have a small building, with out even a room for our monthly dinners so it is only in warmer months, and outside. We now have a pavillion to set under. :-) The tables under it were built voluntarily by members, at their expense.
Back to the big congregations. To our sorrow, many, or maybe most of them are adding things like you speak of. I fear for them.....

[JesusisTruth]

Originally Posted by Simple Living

I do believe that we are in the last days, so I wanted to open up a discussion as to what people think the role of the Church, and the church, will be in these last days. For my purposes, Church (capital C) meaning True Believers who are living for, obeying and following Christ. The Bible calls these people the the Church. The church, (small c) meaning much of organized religion, the lukewarm, seeker-sensitive, serving themselves, lazy, cultish, politically correct, "tolerant," non-biblical folks who call themselves Christians, but aren't - not according to the biblical definition.

The Bible warns how the church, organized religion, is going to be in the last days and how many people will be deceived. "Even the elect, if it were possible." (I'm not so prideful that I don't believe I couldn't be deceived, so I wanted to know what to expect and how to protect myself.) Here's what I'm learning:

Paul, in his second letter to Timothy writes about various aspects of the organized church. (Keep in mind, these are NOT true believers, but the organized institution and people that are "playing" church.)

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth--men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, persecutions, sufferings--what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. -- 2 Timothy 3:1-13

From bad to worse! Makes me wonder if this has anything to do with the question that Jesus asked: "However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" -- Luke 18:8

Paul also warned about the increase of false doctrine in the organized church.

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths . -- 2 Timothy 4:1-4

Paul even says that some will follow the teachings of demons. (Could part of this be Oprah's new "religion?" How about Scientology, which was written in 1950 and revised many times?)

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. -- 1 Timothy 4:1

It sounds crazy that people would follow demons, but 2 Corinthians says how that will happen:

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. -- 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

And listen to this warning, from James, to the Church - true believers. (And compare this to what were seeing in the church today.)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you. Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. -- James 4:13-5:8

That section talking about hoarding wealth sounds like a lot of churches today who have huge building funds (for example) for larger facilities and pastors with extravagant salaries. These don't even have to be TV preachers or mega-churches. (NOTE: This thread is NOT a rant about TV preachers, please.) Most of the world lives in poverty and today's churches spend more on foolishness and "growth" than they give to help people who are hungry or have trouble finding clean drinking water. There are organizations out there that can feed a lot people for a month on very little money and the organized churches of today squander and hoard - for themselves.

So, in these last days, how are True Believers, the Church, supposed to relate to all of this? How can people protect themselves from following heresies, false prophets and demonic doctrine? 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 has a great answer, in part: Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.


So does Acts 17:11 - Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Yes, I agree we are in the last days.
Jesus is coming very soon.
We just need to be ready.

[dojilynn]

Originally Posted by Simple Living

There's a difference between an individual/couple saving money and a church hoarding it so they can grow into a larger building so the youth can have a play room full of video games, or to add on a coffee shop or a bookstore. (Didn't Jesus get angry about using His Father's house as a marketplace?)

Many of these churches have so many of their own self-centered programs going on in which they beg and guilt the congregation into giving towards, but their out-going offerings pale in comparison. Ask them for $250 to help a missionary pastor makes ends meet this month and they'll turn you down, stating that they just don't have it. "It's not in our budget."

Churches weren't intended to grow and stay in one place. (And they certainly weren't intended to grow using secular marketing and growth specialists!) The first churches grew in number based upon real inward changes in their lives and then a portion of them moved on to plant another church in another area. It was about their first love - Jesus! It wasn't about the pastor with the biggest congregation or building.

An individual/couple saving money is called wisdom and is instructed in scripture. Like you mentioned, giving is also wisdom.

I know you are not stereotyping, but I just wanted to throw this in here so people can see that it is possible for a large church to be a good church.

I currently attend a church that averages around 900-1100 in attendance per week. We have two Sunday morning services to accomodate the crowd. It was crucial for us to expand our facilities. There were people (visitors) who would drive up and not be able to find a parking space and give up and leave without ever coming in the doors to hear the gospel. We couldn't settle for that. We just had to get a bigger building, and we did... but it was a long time in coming (around 8 years). We do have a building fund that people donate to that is paying off the facility we are using, but the board and pastor have decided not to borrow any more. I think they are exhibiting wisdom in this decision.

They offer many different ministries to the congregation and to the surrounding community. Many people are touched and end up coming to Christ through these ministries, so I can not and will not condemn them.

We also have numerous missionaries who we support. One, in particular, used to be our youth pastor. He and his wife moved about 12 years ago to Jerusalem to be missionaries in Isreal. We have been 90% (sometimes 100%)of their support since they have been there. If our church wasn't willing to part with money then they would have to come home.

I too believe that we are in the last days, but I don't think that all large churches should be viewed as "luke-warm" and preaching only "seeker friendly" messages. The messages I hear every week are scriptural, no-nonsense messages that spur me on to make changes in my life so that it is more in-line with what Christ would have of me.

Anyways, this was a really long post, and I apologize! Please know that there are large churches out there who are doing an amazing amount of good for the kingdom! They're not all about getting every penny out of the congregants so they can build a kingdom of their own.

[Simple Living]

Sure, there are exceptions, as with almost everything. I'm just glad that it's up to God to decide who/what they are. I wouldn't want the job!

[dojilynn]

Originally Posted by Simple Living

Sure, there are exceptions, as with almost everything. I'm just glad that it's up to God to decide who/what they are. I wouldn't want the job!

I wouldn't either!

[dan24733]

The cry for change and hope is greater than the cry for mercy!

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by Simple Living

I do believe that we are in the last days, so I wanted to open up a discussion as to what people think the role of the Church, and the church, will be in these last days. For my purposes, Church (capital C) meaning True Believers who are living for, obeying and following Christ. The Bible calls these people the the Church. The church, (small c) meaning much of organized religion, the lukewarm, seeker-sensitive, serving themselves, lazy, cultish, politically correct, "tolerant," non-biblical folks who call themselves Christians, but aren't - not according to the biblical definition.

The Bible warns how the church, organized religion, is going to be in the last days and how many people will be deceived. "Even the elect, if it were possible." (I'm not so prideful that I don't believe I couldn't be deceived, so I wanted to know what to expect and how to protect myself.) Here's what I'm learning:

Paul, in his second letter to Timothy writes about various aspects of the organized church. (Keep in mind, these are NOT true believers, but the organized institution and people that are "playing" church.)

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth--men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, persecutions, sufferings--what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. -- 2 Timothy 3:1-13

From bad to worse! Makes me wonder if this has anything to do with the question that Jesus asked: "However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" -- Luke 18:8

Paul also warned about the increase of false doctrine in the organized church.

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths . -- 2 Timothy 4:1-4

Paul even says that some will follow the teachings of demons. (Could part of this be Oprah's new "religion?" How about Scientology, which was written in 1950 and revised many times?)

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. -- 1 Timothy 4:1

It sounds crazy that people would follow demons, but 2 Corinthians says how that will happen:

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. -- 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

And listen to this warning, from James, to the Church - true believers. (And compare this to what were seeing in the church today.)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you. Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. -- James 4:13-5:8

That section talking about hoarding wealth sounds like a lot of churches today who have huge building funds (for example) for larger facilities and pastors with extravagant salaries. These don't even have to be TV preachers or mega-churches. (NOTE: This thread is NOT a rant about TV preachers, please.) Most of the world lives in poverty and today's churches spend more on foolishness and "growth" than they give to help people who are hungry or have trouble finding clean drinking water. There are organizations out there that can feed a lot people for a month on very little money and the organized churches of today squander and hoard - for themselves.

So, in these last days, how are True Believers, the Church, supposed to relate to all of this? How can people protect themselves from following heresies, false prophets and demonic doctrine? 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 has a great answer, in part: Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.


So does Acts 17:11 - Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Simple Living: Did not all these things exist in that first-century setting as well? You quoted James 5:8? What did he mean when he wrote: "The coming of the Lord is near?" (Note: It does NOT say that it is always present or imminent and it is not negated by some desperate appeal to 2 Peter 3:8)!

Also, the writer of the book of Hebrews clearly gave the timing of the last days when he wrote "in these last days" (Heb. 1). The last days of what? The world? No! The last days of that Mosaic age which was then becoming obsolete and ready to pass away (Heb. 8). Peter equated the time of Pentecost with the last days prophesied by Joel (see Acts 2--this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, say God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh . . . .")

The last days are far behind us. What is the context of the verses you quote? Are those things written directly to us or to those of that first-century time?

Preterist

[gwynedd1]

Hebrews 9

26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This is certainly not alone as we can see but how does this fit in? This is as clear as can be when the end of the age was.

[JnetteC88]

Thank you SimpleLiving for your post. I have been searching for - not a perfect church body- there is no such thing, but one that follows the teachings and life of Jesus Christ. My desire is to really please Him and that desire has been tested and tried. I have learned alot through many trials and tests. The pressure has changed me. All that said to say I want something more and deeper in the Lord. It's very hard to find a body that is living for Christ Jesus rather than living for the "program." But the true church is a remnant and so you probably will find the "true believers" "within" the assembly of church. A group within a group. We need the church to preach the uncompromised truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ because in that is the power of God to save. And the Word of God void of the Holy Spirit is not experiencing all that God has for us- it's not the whole package. We need the full counsel of God's Word, fellowship with the Holy Spirit including His baptism with His fire, and to be doers of His commands not just hearers. This is what I desire for both myself and my household. I want my teenagers to witness Christ's life working through believers. Not just church as usual because chruch as usual is full of death. Taking up our cross and sacrificing "self" is the starting point for the power of God to be revealed. God is very patient with us all. Nevertheless, we need to start proclaiming His gospel not just the bits and pieces we like. It may be hard for us to swallow at times but it will save us in the end.