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Old 04-28-2008, 10:02 AM
 
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True to form, here is another spur-of-the-moment thread having not enough time behind it spent in preparatory meditation. (maybe some day...)

But, just for discussion…

We’ve been discussing in various threads about God’s commands and how they relate to requirements on our part.

Following is some scripture:
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
My question is: In the light of the verses (and please bring up more scripture), how does following God’s commands in the Bible (and through the Holy Spirit) relate to our walk with Him, regarding His grace, our salvation, etc?

How do you rate the importance of obedience in a believer’s life?

Absolutely necessary in order to be saved in the end?

Something to strive for, but not at all relating to our “salvation”?

How concerned is God about it, and how concerned should we be?
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:57 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
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on obedience, Jesus said..
John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command

21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

john 15
9 “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete." Luke 6:46-49
If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.” John 8:31

from Tony Capoccia..
Can faith save him? James is looking at this from the stand point of evaluation. He is looking at a man who says, "I have faith!" And he is saying, all right if you have true saving faith then I ought to see some evidence of it, right? “By their fruits you shall...” what? "...know them.”

He is simply saying, if your faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old thing are passed away and behold all things become...” what? "…new.” There is going to be a manifestation. And so he says, what kind of faith have you got my friend, I don’t see any evidence?

For example, he says, “If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food and one of you who claims to have saving faith says depart in peace be warm and filled.” Just what he needs. Condolence. Hope you feel better, hope you find some food. But you don’t give him the things needful to the body, what kind of faith is that? If you’re really saved it’s going to be a working kind of salvation that will bear fruit. That’s all he’s saying. So, in verse seventeen, “…so faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead, because it's alone.” So it’s a dead faith not a living faith. If “a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works, and I'll show you my faith by my works.” And he contrasts two kinds of faith.

One kind of faith is the faith that doesn’t have any works and it is dead faith and the other faith is the faith that produces something and its living faith. One saves and one doesn’t. That’s what he is saying, "Oh," but he says "I believe, I believe," "Yeah," he says, "The devils believe and they tremble." It’s not enough to believe unless that believing results in an act of commitment to Christ that results in a changed life that bears fruit. That’s his whole point.
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
[color=black][/indent]My question is: In the light of the verses (and please bring up more scripture), how does following God’s commands in the Bible (and through the Holy Spirit) relate to our walk with Him, regarding His grace, our salvation, etc?
If we follow the commandments to the letter as described in the old testament, then we are attempting to live by the law instead of the spirit of the law as demonstrated by Jesus throughout his life. I think that is a mistake and leads us down the path to rote ritualization and mimicry rather than an understanding of God's will. If we instead love God and follow the spirit of the commandment, we will find ourselves more closely in adherence with the letter of the law than we might have otherwise, and also be less rebellious in our obedience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
How do you rate the importance of obedience in a believer’s life?
It is absolute. While disobedience can be forgiven, repeated disobedience is surely a sign of a weak understanding and love of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Absolutely necessary in order to be saved in the end?
Technically it is not necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross was not obedient during his lifetime, but at that final moment in his life he recognized the truth and professed his belief. He did not have an opportunity to practise obedience, yet Jesus promised him salvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Something to strive for, but not at all relating to our “salvation”?
While not a requisite, as indicated before, it does become a critical indicator in the spiritual health of an individual as it is an outward result of ones true belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
How concerned is God about it, and how concerned should we be?
This is where we start to split hairs based on our comprehension of God and the concept of trinity.

My concept of trinity is a division of roles with incompatible goals within God's dynamic. The Father is a role of absolute justice, punishment, reward and responsibility. The Son is the role of forgiveness, mercy and love. The Holy Spirit is the role of support, encouragment, inspiration and motivation.

The Father cannot permit sin to exist without punishment or he performs an injustice to those who might live without that sin. He must reward deeds and life according to the law since that is the basis of the morality code establish by him. Only the Son is able to deliver forgiveness outside of the Law through his act of taking ownership of sins and having paid the price through his sacrifice of death.

As a result of this, God must view obedience as the ultimate goal since the entire Law is based upon obedience. Unless the Son intervenes and removes the sin from the individual, God must judge based upon the sin and that is strictly a result of lack of obedience.

So, in my opinion, if we choose to live under the law then obedience MUST be our highest priority in life. If we choose to live under Jesus, we will be obedient as a corellary to our faith and love, but we should be more conscious of our love and the spirit of the law and the obedience will follow.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:19 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
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Default Very high on the list

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
True to form, here is another spur-of-the-moment thread having not enough time behind it spent in preparatory meditation. (maybe some day...)

But, just for discussion…

We’ve been discussing in various threads about God’s commands and how they relate to requirements on our part.

Following is some scripture:
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
My question is: In the light of the verses (and please bring up more scripture), how does following God’s commands in the Bible (and through the Holy Spirit) relate to our walk with Him, regarding His grace, our salvation, etc?

Quote:
How do you rate the importance of obedience in a believer’s life?

Absolutely necessary in order to be saved in the end?

Something to strive for, but not at all relating to our “salvation”?

How concerned is God about it, and how concerned should we be?
As I rate it;
#~1-extremely high on the list; you cannnot serve God without being obedient;
well you can, but you will just be "going through the motions'.
#~2- Yes, absolutely necessary to remain saved
#~3- same answer as #2 , because salvation can be lost through disobedience since
as I understand it disobedience is sin.
#~4-God is concerned enough to rebuke and reprimand disobedience from Genesis throughout the bible. We should very concerned, very serious about cleaning this area up in our lives, and we should also want to as believers, " If you love me , keep my commandments".. well if we don't, we really don't love Him
~good post cg1~, I just wish I had enough time on this library pc to expound more on my thoughts and the scriptures that address Obedience vs. disobedience, this is not a popular topic or at least on the favorites list in the church, when you start speaking to people about obedience to the word of God,it will provoke all kinds of reasoning sometimes.
It is simply not fun to obey ( partial obedience being the same as disobedience), unless you're sold out for Christ, rapped up tied up tangled up.. I have struggled in this area in my walk.

Last edited by yhwhshalomjr; 04-28-2008 at 12:33 PM..
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:24 PM
 
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Thanks for the posts. I think I (mostly) agree!

One question:

We sometimes hear that someone who has been truly saved will have true love toward God, which will result in obedience. Is this the case?

I was thinking of this verse:
Quote:
john 15
9 “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.
Jesus said "Remain in my love." This speaks of a choice. How is this applicable to our lives (as born-again believers) today?
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:39 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Thanks for the posts. I think I (mostly) agree!

One question:

We sometimes hear that someone who has been truly saved will have true love toward God, which will result in obedience. Is this the case?

I was thinking of this verse:
Jesus said "Remain in my love." This speaks of a choice. How is this applicable to our lives (as born-again believers) today?
I don't think I can answer this in the way I want to in the interest of time
But I'll get back to you on this, when I am allowed more time on this pc.
God Bless You
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:40 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 8,794,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Thanks for the posts. I think I (mostly) agree!

One question:

We sometimes hear that someone who has been truly saved will have true love toward God, which will result in obedience. Is this the case?

I was thinking of this verse:
Jesus said "Remain in my love." This speaks of a choice. How is this applicable to our lives (as born-again believers) today?
what i have known to be true in my own life is that I dont want to do anything that would hinder my walk with God, I dont wanna spend a moment without his presence, and as I have found out in my life, my walk with Jesus is a personal one, not a "you had better do this or do that".
Its kinda like that old "dont know what ya got till its gone" song, if you have ever experieced the peace that having Jesus in your life and then you go down a different path where you arent spending time with him, and then realize, I need Jesus, I want him with me no matter what life brings.

i think i didnt answer the question..to say whether someone is truly saved or not, I cant answer that one, only Gods knows the heart, Im sure there are times in my life that some would say that i wasnt truly saved because of my actions or the way I behaved, but thanks God for his grace and his Holy Spirit. The anchor holds.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:53 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
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Yes arguy ;
you have made a valid point that we sometimes (me) have missed
I know that I am temple of the Holy Spirit, and he cannot dwell with sin;
So which brings me to a question, scenario)> if the federal government is issuing food stamps to a family of four and they still are having difficulty feeding after stretching and cooking the best way they can, will it be sinning if the mother took on a part time job or temp job to supplement the food commodity, not reporting it to the agency since they would recoup this equal amount in food stamps for the following months to come.
Is the government forcing her back up against the wall, or the one on social security that only get $10.00 a month for food? I'm only speaking "of the sin, to anyone who want to respond to this with " why "she and "could "she and "if she had....(--),
Thanks in advance
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:05 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yhwhshalomjr View Post
Yes arguy ;
you have made a valid point that we sometimes (me) have missed
I know that I am temple of the Holy Spirit, and he cannot dwell with sin;
So which brings me to a question, scenario)> if the federal government is issuing food stamps to a family of four and they still are having difficulty feeding after stretching and cooking the best way they can, will it be sinning if the mother took on a part time job or temp job to supplement the food commodity, not reporting it to the agency since they would recoup this equal amount in food stamps for the following months to come.
Is the government forcing her back up against the wall, or the one on social security that only get $10.00 a month for food? I'm only speaking "of the sin, to anyone who want to respond to this with " why "she and "could "she and "if she had....(--),
Thanks in advance
theres a lot of shudda, wudda, cuddas here, but the main point is that there are four people there to feed, who am I to point fingers when Im not in that situation. I think its one thing to fool the system and live off it because of lazyness and quite another when you are forced with a decision to eat or not eat (in her case). just my .02
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:51 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
theres a lot of shudda, wudda, cuddas here, but the main point is that there are four people there to feed, who am I to point fingers when Im not in that situation. I think its one thing to fool the system and live off it because of lazyness and quite another when you are forced with a decision to eat or not eat (in her case). just my .02
Thanks for your honesty;
But I can't understand, are they forcing this family into sin? if they have no other recourse; since we are to obey the laws of the land . in her case the federal government. not to mention that she would be stealing and lying(omitting to tell the truth). I'm not playing on words here. I'd like to know if there's scripture somewhere that would support this?
Using a 15 minute computer, forgive if I'm not making myself clear
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