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Chapter three was a good chapter describing order of worship in the churches and who was instrumental in adding them..It was eye opening to me to see that most protestant churches basically follow the manmade order of worship with just a few minor additions or subtractions.It made me question.. Why then are there so many divisions over what the Lord said about serving Him or about what the Apostles told the early church, yet there is no controversy over the manmade order of worship..Another thought they bring up that I have questioned before..Is Christ is the Head of the Church(which is us) or is He just the guest of honor?..If He is the head of the Church and puts something in our heart to share and edify our brothers and sisters, shouldn't we be allowed to share it with the congregation? Or should we continue to look at the back of their heads and listen intently on the preacher and his edifications..Don't misunderstand me, I am not putting down the ministers. He has a gift, as we all have a gift from the Holy Spirit that we are told to use to edify each other and to praise God..Why should we leave our gift outside, unless we have the gift of song and are in a choir..
It makes sense to me that if we meet one day of the week to worship God with our brothers and sisters that we should all be able to share the gift we received from the Holy Spirit to lift each other up and to praise the Lord individually sharing and receiving what the Lord gives..I humbly give the floor to the next person
Please, forgive me for jumping in here. I just can't help it and feel free to ignore what I have to say since I'm not reading the book.
Without having read the chapter (or the book), I can't help but feel I've addressed this issue before. At least, from the side you present blue.
I've always felt that there is a certain amount of "subjectivity" involved with how people view living a "Christ-like" life. It always seems to boil down to one's own personal representation of what it's like. In the south, there seems to be some of the more strict versions of Protestantism that shun everything from drinking to dancing. I've been told by an ex-girlfriend that dancing can be seen as something sexual in nature and can pave the way to sin. That was, and forgive me for saying so, right before I slept with her... Anyway, I guess my point is that I find some denominations preach from the pulpit that certain things are not "Christ-like". Other denominations don't preach against things like dancing and don't find it to be a precursor to sin in any way (except perhaps strip dancing). So, which is it? Did Jesus really address things like dancing? And that leads to a myriad of other questions on my behalf in regards to acts that some consider un-Christlike and some don't bat an eyelash at.
It's just confusing for me to hear that some people think certain things are Christ-like in nature and other things aren't and you have this massive conglomeration of people that can't seem to make up their minds on what it means to be "Christ-like". So that leads me down this road:
I've often seen bracelets and bumper stickers that say "WWJD". And, that to me, can be seen as such a subjective thing. I think it can be a positive thing to look at in regards to how one may behave or view certain things in life, but I also think it can promote closed-minded, almost puritanical viewpoints in other regards. So, What Would Jesus Do? Would Jesus decide to preach from the pulpit and admonish everyone who showed a sign of enjoyment? Is EVERYTHING we do as human beings mired in sin or can we not make rational deducements and judgments for ourselves in regards to how we enjoy life? It seems that we can't and that people try to fit their own brand of what Jesus would do into their personal philosophies of right and wrong. To further that point, I also get the impression that many decide to attend churches that preach to their own personal philosophies as well so there seems to be this progressive feedback loop of "I'm right and you're wrong. Jesus wouldn't do this and I'm supported by many of my other parishioners in believing so."
That's just my take on a chapter I haven't read. Sorry for interrupting, but it's one of the tenants of Christianity that I find downright CONFUSING and off-putting. Please return back to your regularly scheduled program.
Troop I am glad that Alpha started another thread for comments and questions on this book..Your post speaks a bit about the dissatisfaction that many people are seeing in the traditional church setting. Not only with the monotony of as some say "the same ole same ole" every lords day ..The early church as was established by Paul and the other apostles had no resemblance to what we have today..IMo we have turned our churches into a theater type performance by a few inspired people who direct the service and in a word "perform" The apostles taught us that we are the church and God is the head and through the Holy Spirit gave each of us gifts(tongues/languages, prophecying , etc..A gift is to be used to uplift or edify fellow worshippers in song, prayer whateve. We are the priests, ministers, and should all be able to be active participants in the worship service.. Many (including myself) feel that our talents/gifts are surpressed by the legalisms, and rituals etc that are performed by only a few "qualified" people..These things and others are part of the reason I dropped out of organized religion..I needed the freedom from legalism to worship and minister in a way that gave me the peace that my worship was acceptable..The authors of this book describe a growing trend of small groups of people meeting at homes to worship together as they did in their homes with Christ as the head of the church(them)and praising him with song, inspirational poems impromptu sermonettes all for the teaching and uplifting of each other..They are finally becoming the church as described in the nt..They are not "bashing" the churches or religion in general and tell people if they are satisfied with where they are and what they do to stay where they are..They are speaking to the questioners like myself and others..
Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-30-2008 at 10:29 PM..
Reason: content
Troop,
IMO when you boil it down living a "Christ Like" life means becoming more like Christ but you knew that. What you want to know is, what was Christ really like? That is where not only denominations but churches within denominations and individuals within churches differ. Bottom line, He obeyed the Father. His obedience was perfect. He prayed "let this cup pass from me---nevertheless not my will but Thy will be done" Matt 26:39. You and I will never become perfectly obedient on this side of death. So what can I do and what should I avoid? That's the wonderful thing about the manufacturers handbook, the Bible. It was written for all of us yet each of us can read it, communicate with the author, and get a personal message. There are enough "thou shalt not's" to keep us headed in the right direction. The rest is communicated to you as you study Him and His word. We are all in different places on our journey. While He doesn't change, what each of us understand about Him does.
At 62 years old I can see that I'm further from perfect holyness than I was 20 years ago. It's not that I have moved further away. In fact I believe I'm closer. What has changed is my ability to see the target. Obey the thou shalt and thou shalt not's. Find a Bible believing church where you can find help studying His word. Find out why He put you where you are. Than let Him deal with you an the other things.
I hope this helps. It's hard to condense a 30 min sermon into a piece short enough that you think someone will read all of it.
Cause my Jesus would never be accepted in my church
The blood and dirt on His feet would stain the carpet
But He reaches for the hurting and despised the proud
I think He'd prefer Beale St. to the stained glass crowd
And I know that He can hear me if I cry out loud
Troop,
IMO when you boil it down living a "Christ Like" life means becoming more like Christ but you knew that. What you want to know is, what was Christ really like? That is where not only denominations but churches within denominations and individuals within churches differ. Bottom line, He obeyed the Father. His obedience was perfect. He prayed "let this cup pass from me---nevertheless not my will but Thy will be done" Matt 26:39. You and I will never become perfectly obedient on this side of death. So what can I do and what should I avoid? That's the wonderful thing about the manufacturers handbook, the Bible. It was written for all of us yet each of us can read it, communicate with the author, and get a personal message. There are enough "thou shalt not's" to keep us headed in the right direction. The rest is communicated to you as you study Him and His word. We are all in different places on our journey. While He doesn't change, what each of us understand about Him does.
At 62 years old I can see that I'm further from perfect holyness than I was 20 years ago. It's not that I have moved further away. In fact I believe I'm closer. What has changed is my ability to see the target. Obey the thou shalt and thou shalt not's. Find a Bible believing church where you can find help studying His word. Find out why He put you where you are. Than let Him deal with you an the other things.
I hope this helps. It's hard to condense a 30 min sermon into a piece short enough that you think someone will read all of it.
I don't mean to sound crass but I get the impression that you're telling me "Once you find Jesus, you'll know what it's like to be Christ-like so go ahead and try it." That's honestly not what I'm looking for. Sorry. It isn't.
What I'm asking about can go along with my perception of your response though. What confuses me is how many people have "found" Christ but have so many differing ideologies on what it means to be "Christ-like" or, for that matter, find the reasoning to do certain things behind their belief in Christ.
To take one extreme, and I'm not trying to collectively lump Christians into this group, I see people like the Westboro Baptist Church. They're an abhorrent group and they make me sick to my stomach. I think we can all agree on that. Yet, they seem to really think that they are doing the Lord's work by their detestable actions. So, is it really something Christ would approve of? I don't think it would be, but then it seems that it's a matter of how one fits their own personal philosophies (regardless of how warped) into what they feel is a message from Christ.
So, then we can go to the other extreme in people who are not bad people but persistently try to engage others in topics of discussion about God and Christ and continually try to witness to them. I don't think this makes them bad people... Pushy and disrespectful perhaps, but I wouldn't group them in the same boat as the WBC. So, what makes their actions "Christ-like"? Is it because they're being pushy about it in a way that is supposed to bring one closer to Christ regardless of the social and emotional castigations that some of these people have a tendency to bring? But, wait, how is that Christ-like in any respect? I suppose if I looked hard enough to find justification for it I could.
Then, I see many people who are thankfully middle of the road. They're not out knocking on doors and pushing religion. They're basically content with their spiritual stability but yet even these fine folks seem to come close to yammering away at one another in so much as what regards being "Christ-like". It's not a difficult thing to see. It happens day in and day out on this very board. So, what is Christ-like? To me, and with all sincerity, the only thing representative of Christ I can find within the Christian religion is that no one can seem to agree on what constitutes a "Christ-like" life.
Yeah, we all probably agree that the WBC could put their efforts into something better. Sure we all agree that we shouldn't murder or rape or pillage. But these are things that I can so easily see as an Atheist. So, there's got to be something more to being Christ like than just plain bickering over what it means to be Christ like. I can't seem to be satisfied with an answer. To give you an example, if I were to start a new thread on something relatively simple... Let's say... drinking alcohol. I can guarantee you that I'll have an all out riot on this board before sundown with people throwing scriptures back and forth at one another like it's candy. But, how is that Christ-like in any way?
So, to me, the only answer that I can come up with is that being "Christ-like" is finding what suits your own philosophical, emotional, and spiritual "oneness" without making dichotomies on what it means to be "Christ-like". Because, after all, once people start talking about what "Christ-like" is, all of the Christ-likeness seems to go out the window.
From my POV in order to find "Christ Likeness.." go to a place of need and find the volunteers that work there.. could be a shelter.. could be a nursing home.. could be really anywhere people sacrifice themselves (time, money etc) in order to help others.
Its really not that difficult in my book.. What you did for the least of these you did for me.. someone said that once.
To me being like Christ means to be more loving, kind, forgiving, gentle, patient and respectful to people.
Well, that's kind of my point ILNC. I try very hard to be all of these things without a belief in Christ. Really, I do. So, it confuses me when people say "You'll know what it means to be Christ-like when you find Christ" but it seems by many standards I'm not doing a very bad job to begin with. I just don't understand what living a "Christ-like" life has anything more to do with living a moral life.
Now, from a spirtual perspective, perhaps those who believe in Christ feel they are "saved" and have to act as if they are "saved" to maintain that status... But, to me, it just seems like all you have to do to maintain such is to act by what YOU (not you specifically) feel is right and wrong.
After all, I'm running out of fingers and toes trying to count how many times I've heard "They may say they're Christians but they don't act like it." However, I find myself thinking that the judge and jury in this situation would still consider the defendant a Christian if they had the same tolerance for cultural faux pas. It just seems more like a conflict in personal choice than spiritual choice.
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..Another thought they bring up that I have questioned before..Is Christ is the Head of the Church(which is us) or is He just the guest of honor?..If He is the head of the Church and puts something in our heart to share and edify our brothers and sisters, shouldn't we be allowed to share it with the congregation? Or should we continue to look at the back of their heads and listen intently on the preacher and his edifications..Don't misunderstand me, I am not putting down the ministers. He has a gift, as we all have a gift from the Holy Spirit that we are told to use to edify each other and to praise God..Why should we leave our gift outside, unless we have the gift of song and are in a choir..
