What the Church Teaches about Mary (Gospel, Lutheran, incarnation, testimonies)

[happ]

There has been quite a bit of discussion on the Virgin Mary and disagreement over her role in the Church. Some of the historic perspectives of various beliefs in Christ's mother are found below.

BTW, this info was taken from a Lutheran webpage called SAINT EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS SAINT EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS. The reason for this is that some mistakenly identify any honor of Mary as a Roman Catholic practice. This article points out the early Christian Church's understanding of the Mother of God:


Mary: The Mother of God

Fundamentalists are often horrified when they hear the Virgin Mary referred to as the Mother of God, but they are unaware of what this doctrine means, as well as what their own forebears--the Protestant Reformers--had to say on this issue.

A woman is someone's mother if she had that person in her womb or if she contributed genetic matter to that person's body. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her (not Joseph) that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus' mother, the fact that she is also the Mother of God is inescapable, for if Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, whose valid form was recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Mary is thus the Mother of God not in the sense that she is older than God or the source of the Son's divinity (for she is neither), but in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine Person--Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)--and in the sense that she contributed genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only Christ's human nature. This reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, whose founder, Nestorius, claimed the same thing.

Nestorianism runs aground on the fact that mothers do not merely carry the human natures of their children in their wombs, they carry the persons of their children. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the Person of Jesus Christ and the Person she gave birth to was God.

Nestorius's claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified Person of Jesus Christ split Christ's human nature away from his divine nature and creating two separate persons--one divine and one human--united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy of the highest caliber, as the Protestant Reformers recognized. Thus Martin Luther and John Calvin both taught Mary's divine maternity.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following quotes show their abundant and lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.

Irenaeus of Lyons
"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, His advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of His life and conversation with men, and His manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

Gregory the Wonderworker
"For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David" (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

Gregory the Wonderworker
"It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] The Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, 'Hail, full of grace!'" (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria
"[T]hey [those engaged in the public transport service] came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and Ever-Virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

Methodius
"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

Methodius
"Hail to thee for ever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto thee do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son's love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray thee, the most excellent among women, who boasts in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in thee, and who in hymns august celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid., 14).

Alexander of Alexandria
"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D.324]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D.350]).

Ephraim the Syrian
"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius
"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis
"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan
"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?" (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz
"If anyone does not agree that Holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
"As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinius] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing" (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

Jerome
"Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God" (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia
"When, therefore, they ask, `Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?' we answer, `Both!' The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation. Mother of man because it was a man who was in the womb of Mary and who came forth from there, and the Mother of God because God was in the man who was born" (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria
"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the Holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the Holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?" (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

Cyril of Alexandria
"This expression, however, 'the Word was made flesh' [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin, the Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh" (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

Cyril of Alexandria
"And since the holy Virgin corporally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

Cyril of Alexandria
"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema" (ibid.).

John Cassian
"Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God, for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God" (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D.429]).

John Cassian
"You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God then who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if He is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God" (ibid., 2:5).

Council of Ephesus
"We confess, then, our lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God perfect God and perfect man of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the virgin, according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

Vincent of Lerins
"Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two Persons, and with unheard of wickedness would have two sons of God, two Christs,--one, God, the other, man; one, begotten of his Father, the other, born of his mother. For which reason he maintains that Saint Mary ought to be called, not the Mother of God, but the mother of Christ" (The Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).

Sozomen
"Gregory of Nazianz presided over those who maintain the consubstantiality of the Holy Trinity, and assembled them together in a little dwelling, which had been altered into the form of a house of prayer, by those who held the same opinions and had a like form of worship. It subsequently became one of the most conspicuous in the city, and is so now, not only for the beauty and number of its structures, but also for the advantages accruing to it from the visible manifestations of God. For the power of God was there manifested, and was helpful both in waking visions and in dreams, often for the relief of many diseases and for those afflicted by some sudden transmutation in their affairs. The power was accredited to Mary, the Mother of God, the holy virgin, for she does manifest herself in this way" (Church History 7:5 [A.D. 444]).

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[mams1559]

I, as a baptist, don't have any qualm with Mary being regarded at the mother of God, in that yes, she did carry Jesus in her womb.

What I disagree with is 1) her stature as without original sin from her birth. This is not how I read the scriptures. When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and concieved Jesus, that overshadowing prevented original sin to come upon Jesus. Mary, just like all humans, had to accept Jesus as her Lord and Savior, which I have no doubt she did. 2) That she remained a virgin eternally. Again, how I read the scriptures, she had other sons (James and Judas, i.e. Jude) and daughters with Joseph after the birth of Jesus. Catholics do not subscribe to this view of Mary and presuppose that Jesus' half-siblings were Joseph's from a prior marriage, for which there is absolutely no biblical support.

[returningtonepa???]

Originally Posted by mams1559

I, as a baptist, don't have any qualm with Mary being regarded at the mother of God, in that yes, she did carry Jesus in her womb.

What I disagree with is 1) her stature as without original sin from her birth. This is not how I read the scriptures. When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and concieved Jesus, that overshadowing prevented original sin to come upon Jesus. Mary, just like all humans, had to accept Jesus as her Lord and Savior, which I have no doubt she did. 2) That she remained a virgin eternally. Again, how I read the scriptures, she had other sons (James and Judas, i.e. Jude) and daughters with Joseph after the birth of Jesus. Catholics do not subscribe to this view of Mary and presuppose that Jesus' half-siblings were Joseph's from a prior marriage, for which there is absolutely no biblical support.

there is no biblical support for mary and joseph having other children--in Jesus' eyes all men were his brothers

[IbeDavid]

See numbers 15-21 for how Mary has been elevated to the position of Diety : 'Understanding Roman Catholicism' by Rick Jones - Table of Contents . Perhaps the biggest heresy is Mary being able to hear and answer prayers from all around the world , simultaneously.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

See numbers 15-21 for how Mary has been elevated to the position of Diety : 'Understanding Roman Catholicism' by Rick Jones - Table of Contents . Perhaps the biggest heresy is Mary being able to hear and answer prayers from all around the world , simultaneously.

We believe in "the communion of Saints".

All souls are part of the body of Christ. Including our dearly departed.

[histmaj]

Their is no point in trying to explain to people on this forum about anything to do with Catholicism, they hear what they want and distort the truth to make themselves feel better. " See numbers 15-21 for how Mary has been elevated to the position of Diety : 'Understanding Roman Catholicism' by Rick Jones - Table of Contents . Perhaps the biggest heresy is Mary being able to hear and answer prayers from all around the world , simultaneously." LOL. A perfect example of someone who distorts reality, and attempts to use a source which is also grounded in distortions of the truth to make a point.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by histmaj

Their is no point in trying to explain to people on this forum about anything to do with Catholicism, they hear what they want and distort the truth to make themselves feel better. " See numbers 15-21 for how Mary has been elevated to the position of Diety : 'Understanding Roman Catholicism' by Rick Jones - Table of Contents . Perhaps the biggest heresy is Mary being able to hear and answer prayers from all around the world , simultaneously." LOL. A perfect example of someone who distorts reality, and attempts to use a source which is also grounded in distortions of the truth to make a point.

I'm just having a little fun.

Given the profound and intelligent challenges to doctrine over the centuries,
I really am not threatened by ricky.

[weatherologist]

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

See numbers 15-21 for how Mary has been elevated to the position of Diety : 'Understanding Roman Catholicism' by Rick Jones - Table of Contents . Perhaps the biggest heresy is Mary being able to hear and answer prayers from all around the world , simultaneously.

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

[weatherologist]

Originally Posted by mams1559

I, as a baptist, don't have any qualm with Mary being regarded at the mother of God, in that yes, she did carry Jesus in her womb.

What I disagree with is 1) her stature as without original sin from her birth. This is not how I read the scriptures. When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and concieved Jesus, that overshadowing prevented original sin to come upon Jesus. Mary, just like all humans, had to accept Jesus as her Lord and Savior, which I have no doubt she did. 2) That she remained a virgin eternally. Again, how I read the scriptures, she had other sons (James and Judas, i.e. Jude) and daughters with Joseph after the birth of Jesus. Catholics do not subscribe to this view of Mary and presuppose that Jesus' half-siblings were Joseph's from a prior marriage, for which there is absolutely no biblical support.

What I like about this post is that mams is respectful. He states what HE believes and does not show any anger or ignorance toward the Catholic Church.

<>< weather...

[weatherologist]

I am sure that there are other threads to reference, but here is one that I started quite some time back.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...other-god.html

As many others have stated, it just is not worth discussing. There are those that don't know what it means to have an honest discussion. They are right! End of discussion.