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No, Mike, I had not heard about that, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. My quick Google search cannot have done the theory justice. As I understand it, it is the besmirching of God's honor that needs to be fixed. It is my view that God's honor is far above besmirching, and that God knows it to be so. Any so-called "besmirching" that goes on is no threat to God's sense of honor. Why should bloodshed be needed to satisfy God's sense of honor? Does he doubt his own honor, and thus feel a need to defend it against us pesky humans?
All doctrines aside, my personal/private take on it is quite simply 'Jesus becomes us so that we can become Him':
This happens at a such a deep level of Divine Love that once distinguishable borders between the two are no longer - they become as one;
- a merging rather than a substituting, or covering, with the repented human weaknesses and failures purified out and replaced with His Divine attributes.
- yet both personages remain (unique to the degree that the person loved {surviving attributes} while still on this earth).
I agree with everything you've said, with one exception. I believe both personages remain even after the resurrection when we find ourselves in God's presence. Otherwise, we're totally on the same page.
I agree with everything you've said, with one exception. I believe both personages remain even after the resurrection when we find ourselves in God's presence. Otherwise, we're totally on the same page.
Hi Kat - I believe we are of same mind on this - my sentence grammar is perhaps imperfect!
I probably should have wrote: " - yet both personages remain forever (unique to the degree that the person loved {surviving attributes} while still on this earth)
- the part in parenthesis pertaining to an individuals identity - what they did (good) with their life while they had their time on earth - survives as part of their unique personage, forever!
All doctrines aside, my personal/private take on it is quite simply 'Jesus becomes us so that we can become Him':
This happens at a such a deep level of Divine Love that once distinguishable borders between the two are no longer - they become as one;
- a merging rather than a substituting, or covering, with the repented human weaknesses and failures purified out and replaced with His Divine attributes.
- yet both personages remain (unique to the degree that the person loved {surviving attributes} while still on this earth).
What do you do with the verses which say, he did not require, desire or command a (blood) sacrifice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Which verses are you referring to specifically?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
Which ones are those?
He sure seemed on board with it all, other than that one time when he was doubting going through with it, but that was momentarily.
I am surprised that either of you would need to ask that question, read the Scriptures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand&Salt
Yes, my understanding is that God "met people where they were", which in ANE times and culture, was all about blood sacrifice. The Israelites wanted to be like their pagan neighbors which were all about sacrifice. God did not want or require sacrifice. I know the verses you mean. He accommodated the Israelites desire to be like their neighbors and sacrifice. I can't think of God being this barbaric.
Also, Jesus came to fulfill the "law" so there is no more "tooth for a tooth" since he came. We are not under the law anymore (someone else was saying God is the law).
I appreciate everyone's explanation and their varying opinions.
I don't believe God is a wrathful God that needs or needed appeasement.
I just don't see the "cause and effect" here. Jesus dies = Satan is defeated. (except not really)
People need to go and learn, what this means: "I desired mercy, not sacrifice." For the religiously strict-constructionists, they need to go back to their Bibles and learn what man did, verses what God wanted without their preconceived ideologies.
People need to go and learn, what this means: "I desired mercy, not sacrifice." For the religiously strict-constructionists, they need to go back to their Bibles and learn what man did, verses what God wanted without their preconceived ideologies.
So Hosea 6 then. God was addressing Israel through his prophet Hosea.
1 "Come, let us return to the Lord;
for he has torn us, that he may heal us;
he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
3 Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.”
4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes early away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers,
tracked with blood.
9 As robbers lie in wait for a man,
so the priests band together;
they murder on the way to Shechem;
they commit villainy.
10 In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;
Ephraim's whoredom is there; Israel is defiled.
11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.
When I restore the fortunes of my people"
Then Jesus quotes Hosea 6:6 to the Pharisees in Matthew 9:13 when they complain that He is eating with "publicans and sinners".
The meaning seems quite obvious to me: that the disposition of our heart is much more important than our outward actions of piety. An act of sacrifice is nothing but performance art if there is no genuine contrition and humility behind it. The sacrifices of Israel were detestable to God and counted for nothing as long as they were whoring after idols.
Therefore, I still don't know which verses you're referring to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
What do you do with the verses which say, he did not require, desire or command a (blood) sacrifice?
In fact, God specifically did command blood sacrifice in the first several chapters of Leviticus.
So Hosea 6 then. God was addressing Israel through his prophet Hosea.
1 "Come, let us return to the Lord;
for he has torn us, that he may heal us;
he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
3 Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.”
4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes early away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers,
tracked with blood.
9 As robbers lie in wait for a man,
so the priests band together;
they murder on the way to Shechem;
they commit villainy.
10 In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;
Ephraim's whoredom is there; Israel is defiled.
11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.
When I restore the fortunes of my people"
Then Jesus quotes Hosea 6:6 to the Pharisees in Matthew 9:13 when they complain that He is eating with "publicans and sinners".
The meaning seems quite obvious to me: that the disposition of our heart is much more important than our outward actions of piety. An act of sacrifice is nothing but performance art if there is no genuine contrition and humility behind it. The sacrifices of Israel were detestable to God and counted for nothing as long as they were whoring after idols.
Therefore, I still don't know which verses you're referring to
In fact, God specifically did command blood sacrifice in the first several chapters of Leviticus.
So Hosea 6 then. God was addressing Israel through his prophet Hosea.
1 "Come, let us return to the Lord;
for he has torn us, that he may heal us;
he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
3 Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.”
4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes early away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers,
tracked with blood.
9 As robbers lie in wait for a man,
so the priests band together;
they murder on the way to Shechem;
they commit villainy.
10 In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;
Ephraim's whoredom is there; Israel is defiled.
11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.
When I restore the fortunes of my people"
Then Jesus quotes Hosea 6:6 to the Pharisees in Matthew 9:13 when they complain that He is eating with "publicans and sinners".
The meaning seems quite obvious to me: that the disposition of our heart is much more important than our outward actions of piety. An act of sacrifice is nothing but performance art if there is no genuine contrition and humility behind it. The sacrifices of Israel were detestable to God and counted for nothing as long as they were whoring after idols.
Therefore, I still don't know which verses you're referring to
In fact, God specifically did command blood sacrifice in the first several chapters of Leviticus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
He didn't write anything, nor did he require, desire or command blood sacrificing.
However, I do agree that the disposition of our heart is much more important.
He didn't write anything, nor did he require, desire or command blood sacrificing.
No, God didn't write anything. But if you take the words of Hosea and Matthew at face value, why do you not take the words of Leviticus at face value?
Leviticus starts out "And the Lord called Moses, and spoke to him..." and then goes on to describe all of the different sacrifices God is commanding to Moses.
To say that God did not require blood sacrifice, you are not taking the opening words of Leviticus at face value.
How do you interpret the opening chapters of Leviticus?
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