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Good thoughts. Yes, it seems like in modern-day Christianity what is most "sensational" seems to be taking the place of what is "true".
Back to preterism and Christ's return, another thing that makes me have a question is this:
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Jesus clearly said that He had no idea when when He would return.. only the Father knew.
Yet full preterism states that He was speaking to a certain group and telling them that He would return in a specific timeframe.. So either Jesus was not being entirely honest when He said only the Father knew the time, or He didn't realize what He was saying... and in that case, WE know more about what He was saying than He did (because what He was saying was "so clearly for a certain time")!
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Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA
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You are correct, Jesus does not know when He will return.
Matthew 24:36 "However, no one knows the day or the hour when these things will happen, not even the angles in Heaven, or the Son Himself, only the Father knows".
Jesus's second coming will be swift and sudden, no opportunity for last minute repentance or bargaining. The choice we have made will determine our eternal destiny.
Let me ask you a question. When a wife gets pregnant, and people ask the couple when the child will come, does not the man and woman say, "Oh, in 6 months." And as it gets closer, they say, "Within 5 months. Within 4 months. Etc."? Yes, they do. Because they know the child will come within a certain time frame.
But, does the wife know the day or the hour the child will come? No. Does the husband know the day or the hour the child will come? No. Does their doctor know the day or the hour the child will come? No. Does any man on earth know the day or the hour the child will come? No. But does the Father in Heaven know? Yes.
Therefore, there is no contradiction. Somebody can know, within a certain time frame, when somebody will come, yet not know the day or the hour of his coming. It does not matter if it's within 9 months, or within 40 years. If a man and woman say their child should come in 3 months, but they do not know the day or the hour, I will still believe them. If Jesus said his coming would be within 40 years, but he doesn't know the day ot the hour, I still believe him. And there is certainly to contradiction.
Let me ask you a question. When a wife gets pregnant, and people ask the couple when the child will come, does not the man and woman say, "Oh, in 6 months." And as it gets closer, they say, "Within 5 months. Within 4 months. Etc."? Yes, they do. Because they know the child will come within a certain time frame.
But, does the wife know the day or the hour the child will come? No. Does the husband know the day or the hour the child will come? No. Does their doctor know the day or the hour the child will come? No. Does any man on earth know the day or the hour the child will come? No. But does the Father in Heaven know? Yes.
Therefore, there is no contradiction. Somebody can know, within a certain time frame, when somebody will come, yet not know the day or the hour of his coming. It does not matter if it's within 9 months, or within 40 years. If a man and woman say their child should come in 3 months, but they do not know the day or the hour, I will still believe them. If Jesus said his coming would be within 40 years, but he doesn't know the day ot the hour, I still believe him. And there is certainly to contradiction.
INLC & cg81 is correct. Your analogy is correct up to the "somebody can know within a certian time frame". Many a egg are on the face of those who knew "the time frame", the likes like Hal Lindsey, Van Impe, to the other extreme like JW's. Historically, with each new millennium there was a peek of people claiming they have the "formula".
No wonder the Bible speaks of scoffers saying,
" Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."2 Peter 3:3
Where do you think some these scoffers get their ammo from?
A thief doesn't announce anything. If he doesn't announces the hour or day, he isn't about to announce the year or decade.
Time table arguments are just not in keeping with the "thief coming unannounced".
How does God end Peters letter? With a warning about losing your faith. 2 Peter 3:17"Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position." (NIV)
INLC & cg81 is correct. Your analogy is correct up to the "somebody can know within a certian time frame". Many a egg are on the face of those who knew "the time frame", the likes like Hal Lindsey, Van Impe, to the other extreme like JW's. Historically, with each new millennium there was a peek of people claiming they have the "formula".
No wonder the Bible speaks of scoffers saying,
" Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."2 Peter 3:3
Where do you think some these scoffers get their ammo from?
A thief doesn't announce anything. If he doesn't announces the hour or day, he isn't about to announce the year or decade.
Time table arguments are just not in keeping with the "thief coming unannounced".
How does God end Peters letter? With a warning about losing your faith. 2 Peter 3:17"Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position." (NIV)
twin.spin: "ASSUREDLY, I say to YOU (My disciples standing right here withe Me), THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Matthew 24:34). What is not clear here, twin.spin? Jesus did not know the day and the hour but He knew the GENERATION--His generation!
INLC & cg81 is correct. Your analogy is correct up to the "somebody can know within a certian time frame". Many a egg are on the face of those who knew "the time frame", the likes like Hal Lindsey, Van Impe, to the other extreme like JW's. Historically, with each new millennium there was a peek of people claiming they have the "formula".
No wonder the Bible speaks of scoffers saying,
" Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."2 Peter 3:3
Where do you think some these scoffers get their ammo from?
A thief doesn't announce anything. If he doesn't announces the hour or day, he isn't about to announce the year or decade.
Time table arguments are just not in keeping with the "thief coming unannounced".
How does God end Peters letter? With a warning about losing your faith. 2 Peter 3:17"Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position." (NIV)
Good post twin. We need to be ready to meet Jesus and I am.
twin.spin: "ASSUREDLY, I say to YOU (My disciples standing right here withe Me), THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Matthew 24:34). What is not clear here, twin.spin? Jesus did not know the day and the hour but He knew the GENERATION--His generation!
Hiram is absolutely correct!
Preterist
Did you ever stop to think that maybe "this generation" means the existance of mankind period? Could it be that the first generation would have been the people who existed before the flood, and "this generation" refers to all who have lived and are living after the flood right up until Jesus' return? "This generation" means us!!! Since the Bible is the LIVING Word of God, wouldn't it make sense that it applies to past, present and future? I've never seen anyone try to put so much emphasis on nouns and pronouns.
Did you ever stop to think that maybe "this generation" means the existance of mankind period? Could it be that the first generation would have been the people who existed before the flood, and "this generation" refers to all who have lived and are living after the flood right up until Jesus' return? "This generation" means us!!! Since the Bible is the LIVING Word of God, wouldn't it make sense that it applies to past, present and future? I've never seen anyone try to put so much emphasis on nouns and pronouns.
I've thought that it means all of us as well, the whole generation of man. The graduating class of Earth.
Did you ever stop to think that maybe "this generation" means the existance of mankind period? Could it be that the first generation would have been the people who existed before the flood, and "this generation" refers to all who have lived and are living after the flood right up until Jesus' return? "This generation" means us!!! Since the Bible is the LIVING Word of God, wouldn't it make sense that it applies to past, present and future? I've never seen anyone try to put so much emphasis on nouns and pronouns.
Please DOTL and Freedom--could we please do Bible study? Nouns and pronouns are very very important words. Do not be misled by their size.
Have either of you done a thorough study of the expression "this generation." I have mentioned this before. Would you please take the time to look them up. Scripture interprets Scripture. EVERY time Jesus used that expression, He ALWAYS meant those contemporaneous to Himself. Notice also that the issue is not simply "generation" (genea) but THIS generation. The demonstrative pronoun, (it must be emphasized here!), THIS, is a very important pointer indicating and limiting the generation of which Jesus is speaking. It is not any other generation except THIS generation--always used by Jesus to refer to those of His day--His contemporaries!
Yes, I will continue to put much emphasis on pronouns and nouns--they are what gives meaning to sentences! When Jesus speaks directly to someone and says YOU, we need to understand to whom He is speaking. There are times that YOU is used in the context of things that are cross-generational and timeless principles by which all Christians should live (e.g. "You shall love your neighbor as yourself"), but there are YOUs that are strictly limited to the people being addressed in a specific historical setting. For example, Jesus said to His disciples before He was about to enter Jerusalem:
"Go into the village opposite you, where as YOU enter YOU will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever sat. Loose it and bring it here. And if ANYONE asks YOU, 'Why are you loosing it?' thus YOU shall say to HIM, 'Because the Lord has need of it" (Luke 19:28f).
Are WE to find a colt for Jesus and take it to Him? Of course not! Jesus spoke these words directly to His disciples right there with Him and told THEM specifically to get the colt. This was a one-time event. So is the abomination of desolation. How many generations can see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet? Jesus clearly spoke to His disciples right there with Him and said to THEM, "When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . ." (Matthew 24:15). This is the most simple use of language and direct address. Nouns and pronouns and verbs are the very building blocks of language. Of course they need to be emphasized! Words mean things!
Let me post this again for the third time. Have yet to hear some spin doctor refute the CLEAR time frame yet.
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These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying:
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“Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand...When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
- Matthew 10:5-7, 23
So let me hear someone come in here and do some writing gymnastics on this one. Yup, let me hear one apologist claim they "do not go into the way of the Gentiles" to preach and ONLY preach to the "lost sheep of Israel" because these verse were speaking about Disciples then and are also speaking of Disciples now. Yes, let's see how you can twist your way out of this one.
Scripture interprets scripture, and importance of words.
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Originally Posted by DayoftheLord
Did you ever stop to think that maybe "this generation" means the existance of mankind period? Could it be that the first generation would have been the people who existed before the flood, and "this generation" refers to all who have lived and are living after the flood right up until Jesus' return? "This generation" means us!!! Since the Bible is the LIVING Word of God, wouldn't it make sense that it applies to past, present and future? I've never seen anyone try to put so much emphasis on nouns and pronouns.
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Originally Posted by Preterist
Scripture interprets Scripture.
DayoftheLord: 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
It is so very important, as the above passage states, to not speak the words that we have been conditioned to speak by the spirit of the world (by what man's wisdom has taught us); but to speak the words which the Holy Spirit has taught us (to speak in a spiritual manner). These words are contained in the Holy Scripture, which are for our "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).
It must be remembered that the Old Testament was written originally by, to and for Jews. The words and idioms must have been intelligible to them - just as the words of Christ when talking to them must have been. The majority of the New Testament likewise was written in a milieu of Greco-Roman (and to a lesser extent Jewish) culture and it is important to not impose our modern usage into our interpretation. It is not worth much to interpret a great many phrases and histories if one's interpretations are shaded by pre-conceived notions and cultural biases, thereby rendering an inaccurate and ineffectual lesson.
Since the Bible teaches that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33), how can the many disagreements today between Christians and the proliferation of the cults be explained since all, or nearly all, claim to use the Bible as the basis of their doctrines? Nearly all false doctrines taught today by Christians and cultists alike can be traced to the distortion of the meaning of Biblical words.
Instead of superimposing a meaning on the biblical text, the objective interpreter seeks to discover the author's intended meaning (the only true meaning). One must recognize that what a passage means is fixed by the author and is not subject to alteration by readers. "Meaning" is determined by the author; it is discovered by readers. Our goal must be exegesis (drawing the meaning out of the text) and not eisogesis (superimposing a meaning onto the text). Only by objective methodology can we bridge the gap between our minds and the minds of the biblical writers. Indeed, our method of interpreting Scripture is valid or invalid to the extent that it really unfolds the meaning a statement had for the author and the first hearers or readers.
Good post twin. We need to be ready to meet Jesus and I am.
Thanks, ILNC. Agreed. We do need to be ready to meet Him. That is the point of "The Parable of the Ten Virgins". Spiritual laziness, not being ready for Christ's return is another one of Gods warning that should be heeded.
This is why the Preterist belief not acurate. Notice what Jesus said to those five "foolish virgins" "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' Matthew 25:12
"I don't know you" when\where else do we hear that?
The Narrow Door Luke 13:22-30 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
The last words heard by those at the final judgement. When do they hear this? Matthew 25:31-46 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left....."
"All" means "all" is also literal, not just those in 70 AD. We are still waiting for Christ's return.
"Soon" is a relative thing. For example, to a 100 year old person, 5 years is soon. To a 5 year old, that's a lifetime. The same with an eternal God. 2000 years is nothing to him. For us that's like a forever.
Have you heard of objective and subjective justification?
objective justification: Jesus died for sins of the whole world of all time
subjective justification: Jesus died for me.
the same for judgement. The next time anyone sees Christ, they will be judged.
objective judgement: Jesus judges the entire world ( sheep & goats)
subjective judgement: Jesus judges me.
When am I judged?
objective: Everybody on "The last day", "end of the world"
subjective: upon my death or, if am alive, on the last day.
When do I see Christ?
objective: All people, all nations of all time on the last day
subjective: at my death or ,if alive, on the last day
When is the 2nd coming?
objective 2nd coming: for all people, all nations of all time on the last day
subjective 2nd coming: at my death and\or on the last day after the ressurection Why? there are no second chances after physical death or the last day.
Last edited by twin.spin; 05-30-2008 at 01:08 AM..
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Scripture interprets scripture, and importance of words.
