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When Jesus said some standing there would not taste death until they would see Him coming in his kingdom . This statement is found in Matthew 16:28
And it fulfillment is found in Matthew 17:1,2. The first two verses of the next chapter.
1. After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2. (THERE HE WAS TRANSFIGURED BEFORE THEM.) His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
Peter, James, and John did not taste death, and they saw Jesus return as Jesus said they would. It was a vision of the future which no other men were allowed to see. The fact that the Bible shows this in the very next to verses after jesus makes that statement is obvious to all who read it, that this was the event Jesus was talking about. It is not obvious to those who do not want to believe.
Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Revelation 22:12 " And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
At the transfiguration, Christ did not come with angles, nor did he reward everyone according to his works. As we can see, that is a future event that is also backed up by scripture, such as in Revelation 22, as we see above.
Also, none had died in the six day period! Chriist said "some standing here who shall not taste death", Christ did not say all. Pentecost was only two months later and they were all still alive except for Judas. The transfiguration does not fit this passage.
After the resurrection, they questioned Christ of the Parousia again. As they understood it would be in their lifetime. (Acts 1:6-7).
Daniel 9:26-27 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince (John 14:30) who is to comeShall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
Matthew 23:37-39 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate;"
Matthew 24:15 " Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Revelation 22:12 " And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
, Christ did not come with angles, nor did he reward everyone according to his works. As we can see, that is a future event that is also backed up by scripture, such as in Revelation 22, as we see above.
Also, none had died in the six day period! Chriist said "some standing here who shall not taste death", Christ did not say all. Pentecost was only two months later and they were all still alive except for Judas. The transfiguration does not fit this passage.
After the resurrection, they questioned Christ of the Parousia again. As they understood it would be in their lifetime. (Acts 1:6-7).
Daniel 9:26-27 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince (John 14:30) who is to comeShall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
Matthew 23:37-39 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate;"
Matthew 24:15 " Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
In Matthew 17:23, Jesus told those present that they would see (HIM) coming. He did not say they would see the entire event. He did not say they would see angles or anything else. Jesus did not say he would be giving out rewards at that time. To suggest they should of, would require you to add words that Jesus did not speak. When Jesus actually returns, there will be many things happening, yet all Jesus said to those present, is they would see (HIM) coming, and nothing else.
I guess we run into this in the Book of Revelation as well. I've often wonder how much of it has already happend, how much of it is yet to come, and where is the dividing line?
It's like in the OT prophecies. I asked myself many times, did that already happen or is it yet in the future? Such as the prophecies of Joel, etc. As for the pouring out of the Spirit for example, I believe that that already happened in the Book of Acts and has nothing to do with what's going on in some churches today.
I would appreciate any light on this subject.
My basic questions are: did it already happen? Did it happen in the distant past? Did it happen in the near past? or is it something that will happen in the yet distant furure?
Thanks
I guess we run into this in the Book of Revelation as well. I've often wonder how much of it has already happend, how much of it is yet to come, and where is the dividing line?
It's like in the OT prophecies. I asked myself many times, did that already happen or is it yet in the future? Such as the prophecies of Joel, etc. As for the pouring out of the Spirit for example, I believe that that already happened in the Book of Acts and has nothing to do with what's going on in some churches today.
I would appreciate any light on this subject.
My basic questions are: did it already happen? Did it happen in the distant past? Did it happen in the near past? or is it something that will happen in the yet distant furure?
Thanks
John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
Christ had to leave before the "helper" would come.
Acts 2:33 "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
Peter says that Christ was at the right hand of God when this event took place.
Who is the Comforter? We are told:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The Comforter is the Holy Spirit! It is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us!
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
1 Corinthians 13:8-13 Love never fails. But whether [there are] prophecies, they will fail; whether [there are] tongues, they will cease; whether [there is] knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these [is] love.
In the infancy of the early "church" (ekklesia), spiritual gifts, such as speaking in a known language, (tongues) that was intelligible to man was given for the edification of the followers of Christ. It was given as a sign for those who had disbelief.
In the churches of man, tongues are spoken, but they are an unintelligible language referred to as glossolalia(link). I have spent some time in the past in a Pentecostal Assembly. That is the name of that group. There are different branches and splinters of this phenomenon, all claiming to have gifts in the same value as the "early church".
This is just a rough sketch I have presented here, but I would like to go into more detail on it if you like, or if have any questions. In order to understand more correctly, one would have to establish what the "perfect" is in the above scripture, to know if the pouring out of the spirit is happening in todays churches, as you ask. But the answer to that is no, although we must prove all things by God's word.
To help give a better understanding of what "spirit" is manifesting in todays "Charismatic Churches", I suggest this article, written by a hypnotist.
The Battle for Your Mind (http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/freebook/neuro/sutphen.html#tt - broken link)
As for the pouring out of the Spirit for example, I believe that that already happened in the Book of Acts and has nothing to do with what's going on in some churches today.
I would appreciate any light on this subject.
My basic questions are: did it already happen? Did it happen in the distant past? Did it happen in the near past? or is it something that will happen in the yet distant furure?
Thanks
I see you were not asking about the pouring out of the Spirit, and that is what I tried to answer above.
[quote=Campbell34;4976005]In Matthew 17:23, Jesus told those present that they would see (HIM) coming. He did not say they would see the entire event. He did not say they would see angles or anything else. Jesus did not say he would be giving out rewards at that time. To suggest they should of, would require you to add words that Jesus did not speak. When Jesus actually returns, there will be many things happening, yet all Jesus said to those present, is they would see (HIM) coming, and nothing else.[/quote
Campbell34: On the contrary, they were to see it ALL! Notice in Matthew 24:29-33 that these events are all part of the "all these things" of Matthew 24:34 that were to take place in THAT generation. Therefore, the coming on the clouds, the sounding of the trumpet, the mourning of the "tribes" of the "land," the angels gathering, the power and the great glory all happened.
What did Jesus clearly say to Caiaphas and the rulers of the temple? "Hereafter, YOU will see the Son of Man SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven" (Mat. 26:64). Notice how this ties in with Matthew 25:31--"When the Son of Man comes IN HIS GLORY, and all the holy ANGELS with Him, THEN shall He sit upon the throne of His glory!" Caiaphas was to see Him sitting on His throne and coming in His glory both at the same time!
Notice also Matthew 16. We often only zero in on verse 28, but let's consider verse 27 also which is part of the SAME context. Jesus said to His disciples right there with Him--"For the Son of Man shall COME in the GLORY of His Father with His ANGELS, and THEN HE shall reward every man according to His works." Immediately, in that context, Jesus said: "Assuredly, there are some standing HERE who will not taste of death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom." Some of those standing there were going to live to see His coming in power and glory with His angels and bringing reward for every man's works!
What is the timing of the events of Revelation 22? John clearly presents it. He was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place (vs. 6). Verse 7, Jesus says--"I come quickly!" In verse 10, John is told NOT to seal up the words of the prophecy! Why? "For the time is NEAR!"
Verse 12 (and in the context of this nearness), Jesus said: "Behold, I come QUICKLY, and my reward is with Me, to give every man according to his works." Verse 20--"I come QUICKLY."
When was John expecting him to come. He said: "Even so, come, Lord Jesus!"
Paul told the Athenians that there was ABOUT TO BE a judgment from God (Acts 17). He later told Festus that there was ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead and judgment (Acts 24).
Christ came just as He said He would and brought judgment and resurrection with Him. All things are fulfilled.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
No it has not. The third temple needs to be rebuilt for the antichrist to sit in and proclaim that he is God. He will set up the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.
I don't want to jump on you every time it appears to me that you have misused a scripture, but both the usage of Matthew 16:27-28 and 26:64 as 'preterist time indicators' has been disproven.
I'm familiar with the bad arguments that many people use to try to explain passages that they don't understand. As a preterist, I saw this coming from the likes of Tommy Ice all the time. So it always seemed as though there had never been an answer given to full preterism at all. In fact, I tediously collected all of the critical articles I could find, just to see if anyone had actually answered the full pret arguments with any success.
At any rate, the argument brought against Matt. 16:27-28 and 26:64 is not like this. Those passages simply have nothing to do with AD70. Look as deeply as you like in the text and the context, and you will not find the fall of Jerusalem anywhere. It is rare to find a contextual study of these passage from a full pret perspective.. because the context points away.
People should be VERY wary anytime someone quotes a single verse or so as a difinitive proof, and full preterism seems to do that CONSTANTLY.
If you look at the context, however, you will see that personal death and judgment are in view -- not a collective death and universal judgment at a particular moment in time.
This is why Jesus can say "will not taste of death till they see" and NOT have it refer to what happens before everyone there dies.
Stephen is the perfect example, because he DID see the Lord coming in the clouds of heaven with the holy angels at the time of his martyrdom. And even today, for those that look for Him, will He come in the glory of His father. However, if one teaches that it is an event long past, and mocks those who look for the coming of the Lord in their lifetime, does that mean that they will be robbed of this blessing? Perhaps. It is a serious question to consider, I think.
Anyway, blessings to you. I'd just suggest taking a MUCH closer look at those passages before quoting them again. I do believe that, after all these years, an argument has been displayed which negates the full preterist storyline.
Maybe later I'll bring up others which you quote without context. Not to try to school you or anything.. but just to show that something which looks like one thing at first blush, can actually mean something quite different.
Again, this is just my decade plus of experience being put to some use.. and hopefully helping others who are stuck in the full pret vortex to escape.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
No it has not. The third temple needs to be rebuilt for the antichrist to sit in and proclaim that he is God. He will set up the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.
Why does a new temple need to be rebuilt, Lostball? Your scheme of things requires a third temple--not the Scriptures!
What did Jesus clearly, clearly say to His disciples standing right there with him, Lostball? Look at Matthew 24:15 in its context. Jesus said to those disciples right there with Him--
"When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet." This second person pronoun occurs around 20 times in this passage. WE are not the YE, Lostball! As for the man of sin--He was someone alive at the time Paul wrote. Furthermore, what temple was standing when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians 2? Was it not Herod's temple--the same Temple of Revelation 11? Why would Paul speak of another Temple without clearly letting his readers know. When did Paul ever indicate that he was speaking of any other temple but that one that was THEN standing? When, Lostball? Your premillennial dispensationalism is causing you to read into this passage something that is not there!
You are reading your preconceived ideas into the text. Paul was clearly reminding those saints of that first-century Thessalonica of something he had previously told them. The reason for the repetition is some thinking on their part that "that day" had already come. What must their concept have been of "that day" that they even considered the possibility that one could already be present? Did Paul correct their concept? No! He merely assures them that certain things would have to transpire first.
Now notice that Paul mentions that THEY (those first-century Thessalonians) knew what restrained. They knew! If THEY knew, how could it possibly be someone or something 2000 years in the future? Also, the mystery of iniquity was ALREADY at work--in that day!
This entire passage deals with the days of the Apostle Paul and his first-century, pre-A. D. 70 contemporaries. We must take it as it is written and not impose our presuppositions upon it.
Preterist
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Holy spirit
