Preterism... Has Christ Already Returned? (abomination, punishment, Revelation, believe)

[cg81]

Now there has been alot of talk on this subject lately, and there are many points that "preterists" mention about prophecies being fulfilled where I would be in agreement, (see this post http://www.city-data.com/forum/3884533-post19.html) but there is one point of which I am not in agreement...

The second coming of Jesus, when all will be judged and time shall be no more.

I believe that there is a middle ground between the "preterist view" (all prophecy has been fulfilled) and the futurist view (all prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.) For example, I believe that Jesus spoke to the disciples about the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70 AD, but also spoke of His return and the final judgement, which we have not seen yet.

So as not to take other threads off topic and to dwell on this point, I decided to place it in a new thread. What is the evidence, or what do preterists point to as the second coming of Christ, since they believe it has apparently already occurred?

No bashing, please! (and I'm not interested in hearing about "transcendent YOU'S or whatever ... all I'm asking about is what is asked in the thread title.)

[twin.spin]

No, he has not.

The mere fact that there is this discussion proves it.

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by cg81

Now there has been alot of talk on this subject lately, and there are many points that "preterists" mention about prophecies being fulfilled where I would be in agreement, (see this post http://www.city-data.com/forum/3884533-post19.html) but there is one point of which I am not in agreement...

The second coming of Jesus, when all will be judged and time shall be no more.

I believe that there is a middle ground between the "preterist view" (all prophecy has been fulfilled) and the futurist view (all prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.) For example, I believe that Jesus spoke to the disciples about the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70 AD, but also spoke of His return and the final judgement, which we have not seen yet.

So as not to take other threads off topic and to dwell on this point, I decided to place it in a new thread. What is the evidence, or what do preterists point to as the second coming of Christ, since they believe it has apparently already occurred?

No bashing, please! (and I'm not interested in hearing about "transcendent YOU'S or whatever ... all I'm asking about is what is asked in the thread title.)

cg81: Where are you getting the idea that time will be no more? From the Book of Revelation? I know this is maybe off topic, but if you could just quickly give me the reference, I would appreciate it. Thanks!

I do not believe that preterism and futurism mix at all. There are those, and I suspect you are one, who take parts of Matthew 24 to refer to A.D. 70 but take other parts to be still future. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that supports such an interpretation. It is this understanding that forces people to misunderstand the meaning of "this generation" in verse 34.

I am not quite sure what you mean by "transcendent YOU's," so I am fearful of going somewhere you have forbidden us to go. But it is not possible to discuss Matthew 24 without paying close attention to the obvioius recipients of Jesus' words. There are times when the personal pronoun is used of principles that are cross-generational ("[YOU] love one another") and other times when it is directed at a specific person or group at a specific time and place (e.g. "When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet). The latter is the case in Matthew 24.

It is my contention that many Christians come to the Scriptures not to discover the nature of Christ's return or of His kingdom but rather they come with preconceived ideas of His coming and His kingdom which they have been taught. Another difficulty is seen in the deficient knowledge of so many of the prophetic language which dominated the Jewish writings and culture. Our western minds must work hard to ascertain the Old Testament apocalyptic and figurative expressions.

IF one is willing to at least be open to what preterists are saying and make an effort to understand this apocalyptic and prophetic language common in Judaism, he might find that what we believe is not so far fetched after all.

We can come to Matthew 24:34 with two approaches.

1. The things in verses 29-31 have not yet happened, therefore, "this generation" of verse 34 cannot mean that first-century, pre-A.D. 70 generation. It must be given a unique meaning not given anywhere else in the NT and refer to the generation that will see these things (vss. 29-31).

2. The expression, "this generation," when used in the NT, always means those contemporaneous to the speaker or writer, therefore, the "all these things" of verse 34 must have taken place in that pre-A.D. 70 generation.

Would you, perhaps, like to present some of the things which you believe have not yet happened (to include especially "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven"--verse 30) and we can go from there?

I look forward to your input.

Preterist

[freedom]

I believe the confusion comes from different promises.

Jesus shall come for anyone when they are prepared to recieve of His fullness. He said that if you keep His sayings that He would prepare a place for you, and then He would return so that we would be with Him. Very few Keep His sayings, so He doesn't have reason to return very often.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

This is the time of one's perfecting, or mission completion. Depending on if their blessing is to be Martyred or Quickened/transfigured.

The Martyrdom of Stephen
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Quickened Mortals into immortallity
2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

There are many more examples, but that should trigger a seekers curiosity.

godspeed,

freedom

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Preterist

1. The things in verses 29-31 have not yet happened, therefore, "this generation" of verse 34 cannot mean that first-century, pre-A.D. 70 generation. It must be given a unique meaning not given anywhere else in the NT and refer to the generation that will see these things (vss. 29-31).

2. The expression, "this generation," when used in the NT, always means those contemporaneous to the speaker or writer, therefore, the "all these things" of verse 34 must have taken place in that pre-A.D. 70 generation.

Would you, perhaps, like to present some of the things which you believe have not yet happened (to include especially "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven"--verse 30) and we can go from there?

I look forward to your input.

Preterist

I have read your posts and can see where you are coming from, regarding how you decide what audience Jesus was speaking to, etc. But my question in the OP was this:

What is the evidence, or what do preterists point to as the second coming of Christ, since they believe it has apparently already occurred?

[freedom]

Originally Posted by cg81

I have read your posts and can see where you are coming from, regarding how you decide what audience Jesus was speaking to, etc. But my question in the OP was this:

see above, it has happened and will happen. It is both.

godspeed,

freedom

[Garry Denke]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

No, he has not.

The mere fact that there is this discussion proves it.

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."

Jesus Christ! He has! The Gods say so !

All Praise to the Gods !

Garry Denke

[cg81]

What I was referring to were these verses. Where and how has this happened? IMO, it is not sufficient to say "Jesus said "YOU" and therefore it must have happened"...

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[ShanaBrown]

Preterist, what do you believe the resurrection involves, and what do you believe about the end of death and the end of sin? Do you believe that they will exist forever? God bless.

[cg81]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Preterist, what do you believe the resurrection involves, and what do you believe about the end of death and the end of sin? Do you believe that they will exist forever? God bless.

I don't mind if preterist answers your questions, as long as she answers mine first, lol!

(don't want this to get too far off topic too fast before the basic points are at least somewhat addressed, if you know what I mean.. )