Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
While everybody trots out that passage from Corinthians, I'm always amazed how the mossbacks conveniently forget Paul's letter to the Romans:
Romans 16:1-2 - I want this letter to introduce to you Phoebe, our sister, a deacon of the Church at Cenchrea (one of the two ports of Corinth where this letter is believed to have been written). Please give her a Christian welcome, and any assistance with her work that she may need. She has herself been of great assistance to many, not excluding myself.
Now, according to Paul's letter to Timothy, there were only two church offices--Bishop and Deacon, the second of which functions in the same capacity as a priest or a pastor does today. So, the logic is that Phoebe not only served as head of a congregation at Cenchrea, but she's going to Rome in fulfillment of Paul's wishes, and he requests that the congregation does what she instructs of them.
Now, if Paul is so hesitant to have women serving as church leaders, then why does he send a woman to Rome, the most important city in the world at that time, to do his work?
And, while we're at it, if Paul is so deadset against women providing religious instructions, then why does he laud the daughters of Philip for their ability to teach and prophecy?
While everybody trots out that passage from Corinthians, I'm always amazed how the mossbacks conveniently forget Paul's letter to the Romans:
Romans 16:1-2 - I want this letter to introduce to you Phoebe, our sister, a deacon of the Church at Cenchrea (one of the two ports of Corinth where this letter is believed to have been written). Please give her a Christian welcome, and any assistance with her work that she may need. She has herself been of great assistance to many, not excluding myself.
Now, according to Paul's letter to Timothy, there were only two church offices--Bishop and Deacon, the second of which functions in the same capacity as a priest or a pastor does today. So, the logic is that Phoebe not only served as head of a congregation at Cenchrea, but she's going to Rome in fulfillment of Paul's wishes, and he requests that the congregation does what she instructs of them.
Now, if Paul is so hesitant to have women serving as church leaders, then why does he send a woman to Rome, the most important city in the world at that time, to do his work?
And, while we're at it, if Paul is so deadset against women providing religious instructions, then why does he laud the daughters of Philip for their ability to teach and prophecy?
In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a "deaconess" (as a mistranslation in some Bible versions) instead of a "servant" - that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. "Able to teach" is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9). Elders / bishops / deacons are described as "husband of one wife," "a man whose children believe," and "men worthy of respect." In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders / bishops / deacons.
Paul placed no restrictions on women being able to teach or to prophesy. This thread is about pastoral, spiritual leadership in the pulpit, over a church body. That's the context in which my posts are about.
EDITED TO ADD: In the early church, women servants cared for sick believers, the poor, strangers, and those in prison. They taught the women and children. Whether Phoebe had an official title or not, she had the great responsibility of delivering this letter to the Roman church. When they had served faithfully and become widowed and destitute, such women were to be cared for by the church. (1 Timothy 5:3-16)
What people here are not seeing is that we're not saying, and neither is scripture, that women were less important or valuable than men. Not at all. It's strictly a matter of how God designed church leadership. Period.
Last edited by Simple Living; 06-09-2008 at 03:51 PM..
While everybody trots out that passage from Corinthians, I'm always amazed how the mossbacks conveniently forget Paul's letter to the Romans:
Romans 16:1-2 - I want this letter to introduce to you Phoebe, our sister, a deacon of the Church at Cenchrea (one of the two ports of Corinth where this letter is believed to have been written). Please give her a Christian welcome, and any assistance with her work that she may need. She has herself been of great assistance to many, not excluding myself.
Now, according to Paul's letter to Timothy, there were only two church offices--Bishop and Deacon, the second of which functions in the same capacity as a priest or a pastor does today. So, the logic is that Phoebe not only served as head of a congregation at Cenchrea, but she's going to Rome in fulfillment of Paul's wishes, and he requests that the congregation does what she instructs of them.
Now, if Paul is so hesitant to have women serving as church leaders, then why does he send a woman to Rome, the most important city in the world at that time, to do his work?
And, while we're at it, if Paul is so deadset against women providing religious instructions, then why does he laud the daughters of Philip for their ability to teach and prophecy?
Where is she called a deacon?
Rom 16:1 ¶ I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Do you have a reference for the daughters of Phillip?
thanks,
There are some Bible versions that have mistranslated Phoebe's title from "servant" to "deaconess." We know it's a mistranslation because the masculine pronoun is used to describe the functions and duties of deacons / elders / bishops.
As for Acts 21:8-9, yes, the church regarded these women as important sources of information. No restrictions were placed on women by Paul, to teach (outside the church) or to prophesy. It's not known if these women prophesied once or more than once. Being that women were not allowed to be preachers or teachers in the church, they likely ministered to individuals.
Rom 16:1 ¶ I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
freedom
And this same thing could well be said of many of the women that I know/have known, in the church of Christ, at various congregations.
I hope you don't mind that I answer your question, freedom
The Scripture reference about Philip the Evangelist's daughters is Acts 21:8-9
Not at all, thanks.
I hadn't remembered this, i've known women that were prophets, there just isn't a whole lot of them noted in scripture.
Act 21:8 And the next [day] we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was [one] of the seven; and abode with him.
Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
And this same thing could well be said of many of the women that I know/have known, in the church of Christ, at various congregations.
I agree. The church could not, and would not function, without the equally important roles women have in the church body. It takes EVERYONE doing their part, playing their role, to accomplish this. And every person has a place to serve in the church. For me, I help clean and run the nursery. Many people see this chauvinistically as "women's work" but I am gifted as a helper. I love serving. I have the most joy when I'm working behind the scenes so others can do their part.
Since Diakonos was the word originally used in the earliest text, I defer to a learned Greek scholar to disagree:
Only among those people who are opposed in principle to women in ministry is it necessary to put forth an argument that the list of people in Rom 16 reflect the various house churches and their pastors in Rome.
But let's start with Phoebe as a deacon. The most natural way to read the Greek is that she was a deacon. Those who have this entrenched notion that women could not be deacons are compelled to look for a different reading which they must admit is at least a little strained. Yes, "diakonos" can mean servant, but in Pauline ecclesiological usage "servant" takes on the nuances inherent in "Servant of the Lord" language from the OT, especially in regard to Moses. While non-ecclesiological usage could refer to someone who does menial task, anyone who is referred to as a diakonos in ministry takes on a high status. In fact, according to context, diakonos is often translated as "minister".
Moreover, the fact that Phoebe is listed as a diakonos "of the church Cenchrea," makes likely the diakonos is an official position. This is all the more obvious when we take into account that Paul is giving formal introduction to her to the Roman churches. Such formal introductions were commonly given in letters of referral, which this epistle contains for her. In such letters, the referrer would normally emphasize the referee's official capacity.
If Paul did not mean to imply she held an official church title, then he blundered badly, for his letter of recommendation, as it would have most naturally been read, leaves the Romans with the notion that he falsely inflated her resume. Such blunders are the sort of issues which create distrust, especially since Paul had no personal authority over these Christians (he had done no prior ministry with them, nor had he established any of their house churches).
Furthermore, as Greek scholars often comment, if Paul did not mean to convey Phoebe's status as an ordained deacon of the Church of Cenchrea, he could have easily avoided doing so by using one of the cognates of diakonos, such as the verb diakonew (perhaps as a participle), or the noun diakonia (service).
So yes, the translation can possibly be that she was merely a servant and not a minister/deacon. But who would want to argue such? Only those who have already decided that women could not be deacons.
Cranfield, whose commentary on Romans is unsurpassed for its exactitudes on these kinds of matters concludes, "We regard it as virtually certain that Phoebe is being described as 'a (or possibly "the") deacon' of the church [of Cenchrea].'
And this same thing could well be said of many of the women that I know/have known, in the church of Christ, at various congregations.
At the various CofC I have been a member of all I ever saw was the women teaching ss to the 1-6th grade..One time though I remember a group of women who returned from a womens retreat got in front of the congregation and thanked the men for allowing them to go You must be a member of the cofc that has been somewhat reformed by Max Lucado..He is a great evangelizer imo, and I have a collection of his books..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You must be a member of the cofc that has been somewhat reformed by Max Lucado..He is a great evangelizer imo, and I have a collection of his books..